Monday, December 3, 2007

Eternal Security and Assurance: True or False?

My experience in India, as well as speaking to missionaries and pastors has convinced me that most who consider themselves Christians in the world, (especially in countries with severe persecution) either believe that you can lose eternal life, or believe in a faith that does not saved. (By that I mean they believe that a person can think they believe in Christ for eternal life, but they decieve themselves or did not believe strong enough, or long enough, etc. They prove they did not believe either because of a life of sin, a particular sin, or not enough good works depending on the flavor)

I would like to discuss the Biblical proof of Eternal Security, or Eternal Insecurity depending on your belief's. Please do not just quote a verse, but give your understanding of it, and please consider the context.

A secondary topic which would only apply to those who believe in Eternal Security is, can a believer know he has eternal life and will be with God for eternity.

43 comments:

Antonio said...

Good questions, Trent.

If I am a sinner who can't merit eternal life myself, how is it that one must keep it by works? This is a question I have for everyone else.

It might be explained this way:

We are initially saved by grace through faith, but we are kept saved by works through effort.

This is off!

Antonio

Trent said...

If you gain eternal life by grace but keep it with works, and lose it with out works, then you did not gain anything. Do we deserve eternal life or is it unmerited?

Eph 2:8-9 to me is very clear.

My question is, How many sins did Christ die for, and did he pay the total price, or just part of it. Is it finished or not?

If I can lose eternal life because of sin, then Christ did not pay for them.

Thanks for posting Antonio... but where are your scripture references?! :)

Grace and Truth

Trent

Kris said...

Hello Trent,

Hebrews 10:14
"For by one offering he has perfected FOR ALL TIME those who are sanctified"

How much more eternal can being "..perfected for all time.." be?

I think if a person has believed in Christ for everlasting life and continues to think he has to be saved again after he has sinned he is trampling underfoot the Son of God and has insulted the Spirit of grace.(Hebrews 10:26-29)

People who believe this are basically using the Lamb of God as a goat or a bull. What an insult to Jesus, who said "it is finished".

Trent said...

Hi Kris, thanks for visiting. Great points!

Anonymous said...

YES! Good point! That passage actually warns those who DENY ETERNAL SECURITY and the ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice of Christ! Isn't that ironic? The lose your salvation crowd tries to use it to scare you that you can lose your salvation. In reality it teaches the OPPOSITE: It teachees the security of eternal life to all who believe in Jesus for it once and for all.

Anonymous said...

I most certainly believe that a person can KNOW that he has eternal life. One of my favorite verses, of course, is John 6:47. Those who BELIEVE in Christ HAVE eternal life.
I always like to ask people that disagree with me about eternal security "just what statement of Our Lord do you disagree with"? To me, unless you are trying to defend a preconceived, so-called "systematic theology," the verse is clear as a bell. Do you believe, or trust, in the promises that Jesus makes in the gospel? "Well, yes, I do, but I have a life of sin and no matter how hard I try, I sin and can't seem to beat it."
So my first response would be, well, don't focus on your sin, your life, your faith, or your good works. Focus on Jesus Christ and what He has promised and all will be well.

"But how do I know if I believe in His promises?"

I would respond, how do you if you love your daughter, wife/husband or friend? Do you doubt that you love your daughter or son? No, of course not. You KNOW for certain that you love them. So apply that to this situation. You KNOW whether or not you BELIEVE in the promises of the gospel. In your heart, you KNOW THAT YOU KNOW. If you do, and don't fool yourself, you KNOW, then, my friend you HAVE eternal life. And God is not an Indian giver. He doesn't take back what he gives. Especially based on what you do or don't do. He is far above that trite nonsense. Believe what He says, have faith in CHRIST, not faith in your faith, study God's will for you, which is found in the bible, for example, in John 6:40. It's so simple a child can understand it.
I can't emphasize enough, don't base your assurance of salvation on your "feelings," or what's "in your heart," or your sanctification. No, no, no!!! A thousand times NO!!!!! Focus EVERYTHING on Christ, His promises and his living Word the bible. Then, my friend, you will KNOW that you KNOW you are saved. And you are not saved for the next four days, or the next four minutes. No, you are saved once and for all. God's ways are not our ways. It's not you're saved, you're not saved, you're saved--the Angels in heaven rejoice over one lost person being brought into the Kingdom of Light. They don't rejoice one minute, then when you sin, get all depressed and mope around in heaven soaking their crying towels. Believe and be saved with an everlasting salvation. Praise God for his mercy, his grace, and his love.

Jeremy Myers said...

Trent,

I'm glad to find your blog. I found it through your posting at freegracechurches.org

I didn't know you went to India with Antonio! Fantastic.

Good passages above. I also like 1 John 5:10-15 as a text for eternal security. Through some simple logic, John shows that life is in the Son, and so those who have the Son have eternal life. How do you get the Son (and also eternal life)? By believing in His name.

Jeremy Myers said...

I just read your bio. Father to three girls...you like the Matrix.

Wow. I think you and I are twins...

Trent said...

Wow we do have some similar interests! :) Thanks for visiting. Yes, thats a good passage! Thanks for visiting, I Hope you hang around.

Hoping for a bit of interaction from someone who is on the loss of salvation side. ;)

Trent said...

Donald, nice post! thanks, and hope you stick around to brother.

Matthew Celestine said...

It is tragic that so many resist the doctrine of eternal security.

Trent said...

Matthew, thanks for visiting. It is tragic, because life is so meaningless if you can't know you have eternal life.

Trent said...

well.. apparently I don't enough traffic to have people disagree with my discussion points.. guess I am going to have to do something more .. contraversial.

Matthew Celestine said...

Post on spiritual warfare. That is an interesting subject.

Trent said...

hmmm.. Let me consider that one. Thanks for the idea. :)

Rose~ said...

I will be looking for that new discussion, and I will find it by using the new link in my sidebar. :~)

Trent said...

Thank you Rose!

Apparently no one wants to debate against eternal security on a blog called Sola Scriptura. :) Next topic!

Scott said...

I think it might be interesting to discuss the issue of whether one can be eternally secure without knowing it. In other words, does believing in Christ for eternal life also require believing that one is eternally secure? This issue was addressed in a Grace in Focus article by Bob Wilkin. I'm not sure he is convicing though.

Trent said...

Hi Scott. When I witness, I include Christ's promise of eternal life.

I ask a person if they believe in Christ for that promise. I have never had the issue come up at the moment of Faith.

Its always something that happens later. I think its so simple why doubt that eternal life is eternal?

Later after talking to people, then people get confused. But I think when the Holy Spirit is convicting them of the truth of everything, thats included...

However, if someone is sharing a "not" so good news and telling them how they can trust in Christ and maybe, if they are good enough, get eternal life, and they believe that message, I do not believe they are saved.

Why?

Because like a conversation I am involved with someone else in, I am trying to explain to someone that Trusting in 2 things for something is NOT trusting in 1 thing.

If you think you can lose eternal life, then you can't be trusting in Christ for it alone. You are trusting in Christ and yourself, and since Christ won't fail, ultimately its up to you to save yourself. Does that make sense?

If you believed that a chair only needed one leg to hold a person securely forever, you are not believing that a chair needs 2 legs to do the same thing and vice versa.

What are your thoughts on this?

Peace and Truth

Trent

Carlus Henry said...

Trent,

Looks like I am a little late to the discussion, but I would like to offer my comment on the doctrine of Eternal Security / Assurance.

Just to make sure that we are talking the same language, I am assuming that you and the other people commenting on your blog believe that you cannot lose your salvation. It is from this angle that I would like to comment.

Let me first begin by saying that I do believe that you can be secure in your salvation, so long as you believe in Jesus Christ who sent His only Son. From a Biblical standpoint, belief is more than mental assent - which I feel that many Christians reduce the meaning of the term believe.

One of your commenters mentioned 1 John 5:10-15. It mentions that word believe as well. We have to ask ourselves what did John mean when he said believe. If you read the first couple of verses in the same chapter, you will find that believing actually means keeping His commandments (1 John 5:1-4).

So long as we keep the His commandments, then we believe. What about those who don't keep the commandments? What does it mean for them? Do they really believe in the sense that John was referring?

What about what the Apostle Paul warns us in Romans?

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.(Rom 11:22).

According to this, it would seem that Paul is talking about how it is possible for those that are in Christ, to be cut off from Christ if we do not remain within His Grace. If we are cut off from his grace, then that would mean that we will not enter into Heaven. In other words, it is possible that once you have been in a state of grace, something can happen that will take you out of it.

Thanks for taking the time to set up a blog that discusses our beliefs of faith. Although, we may disagree on this, I hope that you will pray with me for the unity among all of God's people (John 17). This blog facilitating open dialogue is a great start to realizing the unity that Jesus prayed for.

Your Brother in Christ

Trent said...

Hello Carlus, and thank you for visiting! I have been extremely busy lately and lax in my blogging duties but do appreciate your interest in discussing these issues.

You said Let me first begin by saying that I do believe that you can be secure in your salvation, so long as you believe in Jesus Christ who sent His only Son. From a Biblical standpoint, belief is more than mental assent - which I feel that many Christians reduce the meaning of the term believe.

Why do you say belief is more then mental assent? Please reference the scriptures used.


You said One of your commenters mentioned 1 John 5:10-15. It mentions that word believe as well. We have to ask ourselves what did John mean when he said believe. If you read the first couple of verses in the same chapter, you will find that believing actually means keeping His commandments (1 John 5:1-4).

Actually, it says that we can know that we love the children of God when we love God and keep his commandents. John was written so that you might believe and by believing have eternal life. Jn 20:30-31.
1 John was written so that you might have fellowship with other believers, God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ and so that your joy may be full. Context of the letter is important and fellowship is the issue. 1 Jn 1:2-7


You said So long as we keep the His commandments, then we believe. What about those who don't keep the commandments? What does it mean for them? Do they really believe in the sense that John was referring?
I can give examples of many things where people believe something but do not act on their belief. Are we saved because we believe? (Jn 1:12, 3:15-16, Jn 3:18, Jn 5:24, Jn 6:47,Jn 10:27 Jn 11:25-26, acts 16:31, eph 2:8-9 etc) or because of what we do? (Titus 3:5-7, Eph 2:8-9, Romans 3:27-28, Rom 4:1-2.

I also like to point out, that Christ knows his sheep. If he knows you, you are his. He cannot be tricked nor does he try and trick you. Jn 10:716, Jn 10:27-29.

Jesus either told the truth when he said "whoever believes in me HAS eternal life(which lasts forever)" or he lied.


You said What about what the Apostle Paul warns us in Romans?

Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.(Rom 11:22).

According to this, it would seem that Paul is talking about how it is possible for those that are in Christ, to be cut off from Christ if we do not remain within His Grace. If we are cut off from his grace, then that would mean that we will not enter into Heaven. In other words, it is possible that once you have been in a state of grace, something can happen that will take you out of it.


I think clearly it is speaking of Isreal being cut off, and they were yet Jews can still be saved. You need to start at least back in vs 11 to get the context. in vs 24 it says they were cut out of the olive tree which is wild. Isreal was chosen yet not all Jews believed either. Romans does not focus on eternal life, and seems to be mostly written to believing Jews. Paul wanted Isreal to recognize the messiah as a nation so that he would return quickly as prophecied!


You said Thanks for taking the time to set up a blog that discusses our beliefs of faith. Although, we may disagree on this, I hope that you will pray with me for the unity among all of God's people (John 17). This blog facilitating open dialogue is a great start to realizing the unity that Jesus prayed for.

you are welcome! I hope that you can come to the assurance that what God has given, no one can take away, and that is based on us having eternal life because of belief on him. Anytime we try and add to that, then it is no longer Faith Alone that saves.

Carlus Henry said...

Trent,

Trust me, brother, I definitely know busy. I have three children myself and it can get really busy around the house...especially since we have another one on the way.

Why do you say belief is more then mental assent...

You asked for some scripture references regarding the definition of the term belief. The one that comes to mind is the following:

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

This verse implies that the opposite of belief is not unbelief. It is disobedience. Wrapped up in the word belief is the concept of obedience. That is why we are encouraged to be obedient to God. Having faith in God means also to be obedient to Him.

(comments made about 1 John refrence).

I am not entirely sure that I was clear regarding the point that I was trying to make. The point that I was making was that when John says he wrote those things so that we know, that we have eternal life, we should ask what are those things. Those things that he was referring to, according to the beginning of the chapter, was that we keep his commandments.

...are we saved because of what we believe, or because of what we do...

Salvation is a gift of God, and there is nothing that we can do to earn that precious gift. I completely agree with this. Now, after you have accepted this precious gift, is there nothing required of us? Is the only requirement is to have faith? Demons have faith. Scripture that we are not justified by faith alone :
(James 2:14-26).

Also, the Romans passages that you mention has more to do with the Judiazers who were claiming that the Gentiles are not acceptable in the sight of the Lord, until they obey Mosaic Law. That is why Paul refers to:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.(Romans 3:28) The Law that is refered to and the context of the scripture is the Mosaic Law and the Judiazers who wanted Gentiles to be circumcised.

Jesus either told the truth when he said "whoever believes in me HAS eternal life(which lasts forever)" or he lied.

Jesus is incapable of lying. As soon as He does, it would be the truth. I would agree that Scripture is infallible, it is just the interpretation of the Scripture that is fallible. So yes, Jesus said whoever believes in Him...so we should have a clear understanding of what it means to believe.

Israel being cutoff...

I don't know if we agree on what the Scriptures are saying or not. Paul is speaking to the Gentiles v11. The wild olive branch that Paul is referring to that was grafted are the Gentiles v17. Throughout this passage Paul is warning the Gentiles not to be arrogant toward the Jews, the natural branch.

Then the ultimate warnings v20-22. Jews were cut off due to their unbelief while the Gentiles were grafted in because of their belief. Now according to Assurance of Salvation and all you need is to have faith, then why would Paul warn the Gentiles that if they do not remain in God's kindness...they will be cut off as well.

Faith alone...
This is one of the Five Solas that I do not believe in. The one that I do believe in is Grace Alone. It is only by God's grace that we are saved. I would like to go into this more, but let me just say that I do not believe that you can earn your way to Heaven either. Let me restate my belief that salvation is a free gift of God that can not be earned.

Unfortunately, I have to go, but I look forward to discussing this topic and more in the future.

Trent said...

Hello Carlus. Happy New Year to you and everyone else.

You said in regards to a scripture that showed belief is not just mental assent "You asked for some scripture references regarding the definition of the term belief. The one that comes to mind is the following:"

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."(John 3:36)

This verse implies that the opposite of belief is not unbelief. It is disobedience. Wrapped up in the word belief is the concept of obedience. That is why we are encouraged to be obedient to God. Having faith in God means also to be obedient to Him.


What translation is that? The ones I am looking at all say do not believe and say nothing of obey. We need to go to that first and make sure someone is not inputting their theology into a translation.

You then said Salvation is a gift of God, and there is nothing that we can do to earn that precious gift. I completely agree with this. Now, after you have accepted this precious gift, is there nothing required of us? Is the only requirement is to have faith? Demons have faith. Scripture that we are not justified by faith alone :
(James 2:14-26).

If you are adding something to keeping the gift, then you are adding something to the having it. Eternal life is eternal. If it is a gift, I do not have to pay to keep it. We can discuss James and its context, but first, no where in scripture does it say that Christ died for Demons and that eternal life is something available to them, number two the condition for eternal life is belief in Christ, not acknowledging that God exists..

You said Jesus is incapable of lying. As soon as He does, it would be the truth. I would agree that Scripture is infallible, it is just the interpretation of the Scripture that is fallible. So yes, Jesus said whoever believes in Him...so we should have a clear understanding of what it means to believe.


I agree and I await your response to John 3:36. In the greek, Believe means believe and mental assent. Just like in John 11:25-27. Martha gave mental assent. She had eternal life just like Christ said she did. We should use the term as it was meant when the bible was written.

You said .... then why would Paul warn the Gentiles that if they do not remain in God's kindness...they will be cut off as well.

You are assuming that cut off means loss of eternal life, which I assume means that all the jews that were cut off lost their salvation? Can Jews become believers? I think the context has nothing to do with eternal life but does have to do with God's blessings. John the context is however as John 20:30-31 make clear.

You said Faith alone...
This is one of the Five Solas that I do not believe in. The one that I do believe in is Grace Alone. It is only by God's grace that we are saved. I would like to go into this more, but let me just say that I do not believe that you can earn your way to Heaven either. Let me restate my belief that salvation is a free gift of God that can not be earned.


So I believe what you are saying is, it cannot be earned by works, but must be kept by works which means that to have eternal life, you must work. This is a works salvation as taught be the catholics. Whether loaded on the front of back, its a requirement. Obviously we disagree, but I think that unless you can show that belief in Christ is more then belief, then John also disagrees with you, and the statements of Christ such as John 6:47. " Whoever Believes in ME (Jesus) HAS (present tense) Eternal (lasting forever) Life.

Thanks again for your discussion and patience.

Grace and Truth

Trent.

Carlus Henry said...

Trent,

God bless.

What translation is that? The ones I am looking at all say do not believe and say nothing of obey.

The translation that is used is the New American Standard Bible. You can find a link here.

If you are adding something to keeping the gift, then you are adding something to the having it. Eternal life is eternal. If it is a gift, I do not have to pay to keep it...

We all decide to live for Christ everyday. It is a constant choice. A choice to be a reflection of His light, or not. What I am suggesting you are adding includes choosing to live according to His commandments.

I would not use the term pay to keep the gift of eternal life. However, it is required of us to do the will of God and not just to hear the Word of God (Matt 7:16-27).

In the greek, Believe means believe and mental assent.

We still disagree what is meant by the term believe. I don't think that the term believe is only mental assent. Instead it also includes being obedient.

Let's put it this way, if you were in a burning building, yet you didn't know it, and someone told you that you needed to jump out of the window in order to get out of the burning building, if you were to believe me (in the sense that you are using the word), you would only believe that you were in the burning building, but fail to jump out of the window. If you believe in the sense that I am referring, not only would you realize that you are in a burning building, but you would be obedient to the command of jumping out of the window.

You are assuming that cut off means loss of eternal life, which I assume means that all the jews that were cut off lost their salvation? Can Jews become believers?

Just in case you wanted a respond to the question, yes, I believe that Jews can become believers. What do you believe to be the context of the scripture that I mentioned?

So I believe what you are saying is, it cannot be earned by works, but must be kept by works which means that to have eternal life, you must work...

Yes. I think that is it exactly.

...This is a works salvation as taught be the catholics.

I would agree with what you are saying, but would include that I don't think you understand what the Catholics actually teach. Catholics don't believe in works based righteousness any more than Non-Catholics. We can talk about that more if you would like.

Obviously we disagree, but I think that unless you can show that belief in Christ is more then belief, then John also disagrees with you, and the statements of Christ such as John 6:47. " Whoever Believes in ME (Jesus) HAS (present tense) Eternal (lasting forever) Life.

Yes we do disagree. But if you can show me how faith / belief does not include and is not completed by works, then James disagrees with you. :)

You are maintaining the position that once saved, always saved. So in other words, once you have attained a belief in Jesus (which in your explanation above is just a mental assent of faith, and not an acting or obedient faith), then you have attained salvation and you are eternally secure. If I am not representing your position accurately, please let me know.

So, from Scripture, if there is a place that shows that someone was saved at one point, and then lost their salvation, then your definition of Eternal Security is not correct.

St. Paul says:
No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.(1 Cor 9:27)

Here is St. Paul, who has seen our Risen Lord, face-to-face. He says that under certain circumstances, even he may lose the prize. Of course, I am interpreting this as the prize of salvation. If St. Paul thinks that it is possible for him to lose the prize, why would anyone think that it is not possible for them to lose it?

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.(1 Tim. 4:1)

Here is St. Paul writing to Timothy regarding how people will abandon the faith to follow something else. In order to abandon something, you have to have it to begin with. What is it that the people will abandon...the faith. What faith? Faith in Christ Jesus. They will choose to leave the faith in order to follow demons. This shows that salvation is not eternally secure, because you can choose to abandon and walk away from it. Only those who persevere to the end will be saved (1 Tim. 4:16)

Of course no one knows who really wrote Hebrews....but still:

Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,” so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.(Heb 3:12-14)


Also, if I can show, that even the Apostles did not believe that they were Eternally Secure, then what business would anyone have in holding this position? They walked with Christ, if anyone believed in them (according once again to your definition of belief), then it was them, and they can rest assured because salvation is theirs. Yet...

and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do...I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.(Phillipians 3:11-14

Ultimately, it is not I who should judge myself. Even though I am not aware of anything that I have done to offend the Lord, that does not automatically mean that I am innocent. Only God can judge the state of my salvation. (1 Cor 4:3-4)

God bless....and I look forward to hearing from you again

Trent said...

Carlus, you are fast. :)

If Obey is a better translation then Believe Like the NKJ Majority text or like the NIV based on the critical text which says reject, then I would have to say it has to mean obey his command to believe in him. Nothing else fits with the context. See John 3:18 for example for immediate context. I will review the rest ASAP.

Grace and Truth

Trent

Trent said...

Carlus said “We still disagree what is meant by the term believe. I don't think that the term believe is only mental assent. Instead it also includes being obedient.

Let's put it this way, if you were in a burning building, yet you didn't know it, and someone told you that you needed to jump out of the window in order to get out of the burning building, if you were to believe me (in the sense that you are using the word), you would only believe that you were in the burning building, but fail to jump out of the window. If you believe in the sense that I am referring, not only would you realize that you are in a burning building, but you would be obedient to the command of jumping out of the window.”


Eternal life is gained at the moment of Belief which means it would happen before you could take action on it. Before you could stumble and fall on the way to the window.. before your fear of heights could doom you. Most people believe many things they never take action on, or the reverse. Whethers its that smoking is bad for you, sugar is bad, working out is good, raw vegatables or good, or that we really should be more gracious to people. (and this has nothing to do with you who have been very gracious, and I hope to follow that example!)

You are assuming that cut off means loss of eternal life, which I assume means that all the jews that were cut off lost their salvation? Can Jews become believers?

Carlus said “Just in case you wanted a respond to the question, yes, I believe that Jews can become believers. What do you believe to be the context of the scripture that I mentioned?”

not sure obviously I misread. If its important to your stand, we can review.. I am skipping from book to book currently, and usually prefer to stay in some sort of context since its easier to gain meaning that way. 

So I believe what you are saying is, it cannot be earned by works, but must be kept by works which means that to have eternal life, you must work...

Ok, making sure I had a handle on your stance in regards to Catholicism etc. We can save that topic for another time 

Ok, the meat of our discussion comes next and I think is where our debate will become fun and interesting for the two of us.


Please if you can refrain from responding until I finish..  otherwise it gets messy. If you need to do multiple posts due to lack of time, let me know and I will do the same for you.

continued -

Carlus Henry said...

Trent,

Multiple posts would be great for me as well. As you may imagine, it took me quite a bit of time to respond to the last comment. Also, your last post made it seem as though I should wait until you have completed your follow-up comments. I am all in favor of that as well. Please make it clear that you have completed your response.

Also, I appreciate your commitment to staying on topic. It is very easy to drift away from the topic at hand on some tangent, and never really find our way back to the topic.

Enjoying our conversation....God bless....

Trent said...

Thank you for your patience.

Trent had said "Obviously we disagree, but I think that unless you can show that belief in Christ is more then belief, then John also disagrees with you, and the statements of Christ such as John 6:47. " Whoever Believes in ME (Jesus) HAS (present tense) Eternal (lasting forever) Life."

Carlus said “Yes we do disagree. But if you can show me how faith / belief does not include and is not completed by works, then James disagrees with you. :)

You are maintaining the position that once saved, always saved. So in other words, once you have attained a belief in Jesus (which in your explanation above is just a mental assent of faith, and not an acting or obedient faith), then you have attained salvation and you are eternally secure. If I am not representing your position accurately, please let me know.

So, from Scripture, if there is a place that shows that someone was saved at one point, and then lost their salvation, then your definition of Eternal Security is not correct.”


Trent answers “yes, that would be true. If someone lost eternal life after gaining it, then my view would not be correct and Eternal life has the wrong name too! 8-) I need to address the verses below and I do not think James disagrees with me. I challenge you to read the book of James completely every day for the next 7 days. I was very surprised when I did that how much easier the book is to understand”

Carlus quotes St. Paul:
No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.(1 Cor 9:27)

Carlus states “Here is St. Paul, who has seen our Risen Lord, face-to-face. He says that under certain circumstances, even he may lose the prize. Of course, I am interpreting this as the prize of salvation. If St. Paul thinks that it is possible for him to lose the prize, why would anyone think that it is not possible for them to lose it?”

Trent answers “If belief is simply believing then it makes sense for the prize to be something else. Crowns, inheritance’s, reigning with Christ and other rewards are listed for those who persevere so I agree that its very important to do so. If you notice, in James, the rewards and penalties are all in this life, and the context soul is life clearly in some cases and not clearly in others if taken out of the context.”

Carlus quotes: The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.(1 Tim. 4:1)

Carlus says “Here is St. Paul writing to Timothy regarding how people will abandon the faith to follow something else. In order to abandon something, you have to have it to begin with. What is it that the people will abandon...the faith. What faith? Faith in Christ Jesus. They will choose to leave the faith in order to follow demons. This shows that salvation is not eternally secure, because you can choose to abandon and walk away from it. Only those who persevere to the end will be saved (1 Tim. 4:16)”

Trent answers. “based on your theology, you are assuming that they are saved from hell. by the way, I think that contextually those are teachers also, not just laypeople. Perseverance can save you from some things (IN James if you persevere through temptation you will be approved and receive the crown of life which is a reward for those who love him. It also can give wisdom and character), but it can’t save you from hell. Only Faith in Christ does that. Most of the time Salvation in the new testament is not eternal life. I also point you to 2 Tim 2:11-13. If we endure, we reign, if we deny he will deny us, but even if we are faithless, he is till faithful. There is rewards and discipline, but not a loss of eternal life. A denial of privileges, shame and even punishment yes. “

Carlus says Of course no one knows who really wrote Hebrews....but still:

Quote: Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. You must warn each other every day, while it is still “today,” so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God. For if we are faithful to the end, trusting God just as firmly as when we first believed, we will share in all that belongs to Christ.(Heb 3:12-14)

Trent replies “ do you see the common thread? Hebrews is all about rewards and inheritance. See Hebrews 2:6-18 which is continuing from the beginning of the book. If we persevere and remain faithful, then we will share in the inheritance set apart for us. Peter speaks of the same thing.“


Carlus says “Also, if I can show, that even the Apostles did not believe that they were Eternally Secure, then what business would anyone have in holding this position? They walked with Christ, if anyone believed in them (according once again to your definition of belief), then it was them, and they can rest assured because salvation is theirs. Yet...

and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do...I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.(Phillipians 3:11-14”


Trent says “Starting in chapter 1 going through vs 9 you see the context. He is encouraging them, not scaring them. Telling them to not stop before the goal. To run to win the prize. 3:9 I don’t have my own righteousness, but that which is through faith in Christ!.. that I may KNOW Him and the power of his suffering being conformed to his death if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the Dead.

It is through Faith in Christ! Then he goes back to his topic again of attaining maturity or perfection through effort. Reaching forward towards the prize which is ahead, not eternal life which is already his. The prize of the upward call of God in Chirst. Vs 15 focus’s this on the mature only. This is not for milk eaters who doubt their eternal life.Vs 20 states that our citizenship is in Heaven! Not will be but it is now. Chapter 4 Standfast!.” Remember, if Eternal life needs works, you have problems in romans, because grace and works are opposites, Eph 2:8-9, Galations, and the fact that in John, Christ told the woman at the well. Drink once and you will NEVER thirst again. If you could lose eternal life, you would thirst again. Was he trying to trick her or deceive her, or was he telling the truth? He could have told her, if you drink of this water, and follow my commands good enough you won’t thirst again, or he could have told her, you might have to have a drink every once in a while“




Carlus says “Ultimately, it is not I who should judge myself. Even though I am not aware of anything that I have done to offend the Lord, that does not automatically mean that I am innocent. Only God can judge the state of my salvation. (1 Cor 4:3-4)

God bless....and I look forward to hearing from you again”


Trent says “Carlus, If upon faith in Christ, I have eternal life, and eternal life is equivalent to salvation from the lake of fire, and the lake of fire is in the future, and then I lose it and then end up in the lake, not only was eternal life not eternal, I never was saved from the lake of fire.

If we agree that John 20:30-31 is true, can we keep are argument there for now, or do you agree that to argue effectively that belief is more then just faith in Christ you need to use the other books? If so, lets focus on one book at a time. I think we will both be more effective with our time, and be able to focus more on context better. I know I responded rather quickly, but only because I am really enjoying discussing this with you. I should have been working and making some money. :) I am not guaranteeing this fast of a response.. though if we stick to one book I think we will get deeper and be able to respond faster and the conversation will get more focused.

A couple thoughts that came up over dinner tonight as I was considering this. If Belief is really not simply belief, God could have used words like follow my rules, commit tied in with eternal life, instead of rewards. Rewards there are obviously levels too as shown by the parable of the talents, but Eternal life you either have or you don’t. Why is there not a measuring rod to determine you have it? How do you ever know you are good enough since simple faith is not enough in your theology? You right now cannot say you know you have eternal life, because you don’t know what God’s measure is. How much good do you have to do, and how much sin it to much? You don’t have to answer these unless you have one quickly. My hope is you will consider these and realize that God wants you to know you have eternal life, he knows the future and what we will do, and he is not teasing us making us think he is giving us a gift, but in reality might take it away because we did not deserve it?

Carlus Henry said...

Trent,

You are a good man, Trent. I too enjoy talking about God, and run the risk of spending too much time doing so, especially at work ;).

Some things that I can respond to quickly...do I have an assurance of salvation? Yes. I believe that we can know that we have eternal life, so long as we remain in the kindness of the Lord. We do not make God owe us because of something that we did. He is not our debtor in that sense. We hold fast to Him and the reward of salvation because of what He promised. We believe that He will honor his promise and therefore we will receive Eternal life because of that. Salvation is assured. I wonder if we disagree more on the definition of assurance and security. How are we secure and how are we assured of salvation?

...hmmm...so tempted to continue and add more from the last response, but I should get back to work. Hehehe

God bless you...and I hope to give you a complete response soon....

Carlus

Carlus Henry said...

Trent....

Time just seems to be something that I just don't have enough of these days. Okay...let's get started:

If someone lost eternal life after gaining it, then my view would not be correct and Eternal life has the wrong name too!

Eternal life would not have the wrong name. In this definition, you are making Eternal Life synonymous with Assurance of Salvation.

If belief is simply believing then it makes sense for the prize to be something else. Crowns, inheritance’s, reigning with Christ and other rewards are listed for those who persevere so I agree that its very important to do so.

Or if belief is more than mental assent, and instead includes obedience as Paul tells us in (Romans 1:5), then it truly is critical to salvation to be obedient, and not just for the prize of crowns, but for the ultimate prize of the salvation of our souls.

Perseverance can save you from some things (IN James if you persevere through temptation you will be approved and receive the crown of life which is a reward for those who love him. It also can give wisdom and character), but it can’t save you from hell.

We should probably start defining some terms. I do believe that perseverence will save you from all things because that is what St. Matthews tells us:

All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved Matt 10:22

This is the sense of perseverence that I mean. How do you define perseverence? It may be that you, me and Scripture are talking about 3 seperately different things.

Only Faith in Christ does that.

Amen. In the same breath, that is why it is imperative for us to hold on to the faith, and persevere in that faith until the end. Now I am thinking we are saying the same thing. :)

I also point you to 2 Tim 2:11-13. If we endure, we reign, if we deny he will deny us, but even if we are faithless, he is till faithful. There is rewards and discipline, but not a loss of eternal life. A denial of privileges, shame and even punishment yes.

Okay. Here is a point that I truly believe that we disagree on. Because God remains faithful to us, that doesn't mean that the faithless will inherit the Kingdom of God. There are plenty of passages that refute the idea that those who do not believe in Christ will not enter into salvation. I may be misunderstanding what you are saying but it seems as though this is the argument that you are making.

I agree that there are rewards and discipline. For God always disciplines those that He loves (Heb 12:7-11). (This is my problem with the health and wealth gospel, but that is a different story).

Regarding "sharing in all that belongs to Christ"...

do you see the common thread? Hebrews is all about rewards and inheritance. See Hebrews 2:6-18 which is continuing from the beginning of the book. If we persevere and remain faithful, then we will share in the inheritance set apart for us. Peter speaks of the same thing.

If you do not persevere and do not remain faithful, then are you entitled to share any of Christ's inheritance? I would suggest we are not.

Reaching forward towards the prize which is ahead, not eternal life which is already his.

Where do you find this distinction between the prize not being eternal life?

This is not for milk eaters who doubt their eternal life.

There is no reason to doubt your eternal life. At the same token, there is no reason to believe that you are automatically assured eternal life based solely on a one time profession of faith. This is the beginning of the journey, sure. But it doesn't mean that you have arrived at the destination.

Remember, if Eternal life needs works, you have problems in romans, because grace and works are opposites,

Grace and works are not opposite. In fact, grace is what fuels the faith and the works. It is by Gods Grace that we come to the faith. It is by Gods Grace that we do the works.

Eph 2:8-9...

I love it when people mention this verse. Please look at the whole context Eph 2:8-10.

Christ told the woman at the well. Drink once and you will NEVER thirst again. If you could lose eternal life, you would thirst again. Was he trying to trick her or deceive her, or was he telling the truth? He could have told her, if you drink of this water, and follow my commands good enough you won’t thirst again, or he could have told her, you might have to have a drink every once in a while

You are absolutely right. Faith is the beginning of the journey. It is not the completion of it. Losing salvation and losing the faith is something that we should all be on guard of. These are not my words, but the words of our Savior:

Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved Matt 24:9-13

We must hold on to this faith until the end. We must not be led astray, and we must not follow decieving spirits and we must not walk away from the faith. We must hold firm to it until the end.

Carlus, If upon faith in Christ, I have eternal life, and eternal life is equivalent to salvation from the lake of fire, and the lake of fire is in the future, and then I lose it and then end up in the lake, not only was eternal life not eternal, I never was saved from the lake of fire.

Eternal life is always eternal. Just because you lose it, does not make it any less eternal than if you would have retained it. We are talking about assurance, not eternal life. You may have lost the assurance of life eternal. The terms that you are using to describe Eternal life and that is the same as Assurance of Salvation shows me that we are definitely coming from different angles on our terminology. This is worth defining terms. What do you mean by Eternal Life? What do you mean by Assurance of Salvation? Why do you consider these the same?

If we agree that John 20:30-31 is true, can we keep are argument there for now, or do you agree that to argue effectively that belief is more then just faith in Christ you need to use the other books?

I think that it is worth using all of Scripture to show what is meant by believing.

If Belief is really not simply belief, God could have used words like follow my rules, commit tied in with eternal life, instead of rewards.

Aahhh...Good point. So what we really need in this circumstance is a good Jew in order to help us understand what it means to believe. Jesus and the Apostles were Jews. We should look at it from their context, an not our 21st Century Western culture on what it means to believe.

Eternal life you either have or you don’t.

Yes. This we can agree on. For all intensive purposes, at any one point and time, you are either walking in the faith, or you are walking outside of the faith. The point that I am trying to make is that once you begin your journey of faith, you can walk right out of it. Thank goodness God is merciful and will accept us back, but at the same time, we will have to persevere to the end, meaning when we die, we better be on the right track.

Why is there not a measuring rod to determine you have it? How do you ever know you are good enough since simple faith is not enough in your theology?

This is a completely unscriptural idea. To determine if you are good enough, or have a measuring rod. God made a promise. I believe it. That is good enough. Right?

You right now cannot say you know you have eternal life, because you don’t know what God’s measure is. How much good do you have to do, and how much sin it to much?

Let's put it this way. We can all have an assurance of salvation, not because of when we first came to Christ, but because of the standard that He placed on us. If we do such and such, and this and that, then we can know that we have salvation. So the way I figure it, as long as we do such and such, and this and that, we are assured of our salvation. If we don't, then we need to get back on the right path with God.

My hope is you will consider these and realize that God wants you to know you have eternal life, he knows the future and what we will do, and he is not teasing us making us think he is giving us a gift, but in reality might take it away because we did not deserve it?

Of course I know that God has eternal life for me. He definitely knows the future, and he knows if I am going to die in the state of grace, on the path of faith, or off of it. As long as I persevere to my end, then I know that God will save me.

God does not take His gift of salvation away from anyone. It is I who have the power to turn away from it.

Trent,

You have to excuse me. I definitely did not take the time to elegantly respond to your last comment the way I would have liked to. However, I did spend the better part of my lunch break writing this up. If there are any places where I said something that was offensive, please do not take it that way. It was most likely due to the fact that I was pressed for time.

I would like to continue our conversation too, but I think that it would do us both some good to temper the comments and make them shorter. Can we start by defining some terms so we know what the other is talking about? I think that htis will be helpful as well.

If we continue on this route, we are also going to have to come up with a word count limit too. ;)

geez!!!

God bless you brother....

Trent said...

Hey Carlus. :) here we go!

T said "If belief is simply believing then it makes sense for the prize to be something else. Crowns, inheritance’s, reigning with Christ and other rewards are listed for those who persevere so I agree that its very important"

C said "Or if belief is more than mental assent, and instead includes obedience as Paul tells us in (Romans 1:5), then it truly is critical to salvation to be obedient, and not just for the prize of crowns, but for the ultimate prize of the salvation of our souls."

T said "Obedience is critical to salvation, but not eternal life. Romans is focused on temporal salvation, not eternal life. Salvation from God's wrath. R. 1:5 specifically is for apostleship, and is for obedience, not by obedience. If you get a chance, read the entire book of Romans daily for 10 days. Its interesting because the salvation under discussion can only be gained after you have believed."

C says "We should probably start defining some terms. I do believe that perseverence will save you from all things because that is what St. Matthews tells us:

All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved Matt 10:22

This is the sense of perseverence that I mean. How do you define perseverence? It may be that you, me and Scripture are talking about 3 seperately different things."

t says "I think what we need to define is the word saved or salvation. Context determines what you are delivered from. There are many ways its used. In the old testament I don't think its ever eternal life, and most of the time in the new its not either. Matt does not say Perseverance will save you from all things :)


C said "Amen. In the same breath, that is why it is imperative for us to hold on to the faith, and persevere in that faith until the end. Now I am thinking we are saying the same thing. :)"

T says "Yes, we should. According to 1 peter, there is an inheritace set aside for those who "remain" faithful. So those who do not lose out on those rewards."

T says "I also point you to 2 Tim 2:11-13. If we endure, we reign, if we deny he will deny us, but even if we are faithless, he is till faithful. There is rewards and discipline, but not a loss of eternal life. A denial of privileges, shame and even punishment yes. "

C says "Okay. Here is a point that I truly believe that we disagree on. Because God remains faithful to us, that doesn't mean that the faithless will inherit the Kingdom of God. There are plenty of passages that refute the idea that those who do not believe in Christ will not enter into salvation.

I agree that there are rewards and discipline. For God always disciplines those that He loves (Heb 12:7-11). (This is my problem with the health and wealth gospel, but that is a different story)."

t says "I agree.. those who are not faithful, will not "inherit" the kingdom, but normally entering and inheritace would be two different things."

T says "do you see the common thread? Hebrews is all about rewards and inheritance. See Hebrews 2:6-18 which is continuing from the beginning of the book. If we persevere and remain faithful, then we will share in the inheritance set apart for us. Peter speaks of the same thing.

If you do not persevere and do not remain faithful, then are you entitled to share any of Christ's inheritance? No!

Reaching forward towards the prize which is ahead, not eternal life which is already his. "

Trent said...

C says "Where do you find this distinction between the prize not being eternal life?"

T says All through Pauls letters he speaks of striving for rewards & Hebrews. In Romans 12:1-2 he begs his brothers to not be conformed, but be transformed. It sounds like a lot of Christians were not persevering and he was begging them to do so because "it is your reasonable service" In Christ's parables he has servants that are lousy servants and those who are good servants. The principle is all over in the New Testament. There are comparisons, prizes, and then the free gift of eternal life given to all who believe."

C says "There is no reason to doubt your eternal life. At the same token, there is no reason to believe that you are automatically assured eternal life based solely on a one time profession of faith. This is the beginning of the journey, sure."

T says. "profession of faith does not give you eternal life. Belief or faith in Christ does. Regardless, I agree, its the beginning of your journey, but the journey is discipleship, not trying to gain eternal life which you "have" when you believe.
Remember, if Eternal life needs works, you have problems in romans, because grace and works are opposites,"

C says "Grace and works are not opposite. In fact, grace is what fuels the faith and the works. It is by Gods Grace that we come to the faith. It is by Gods Grace that we do the works."

T says. Romans 3:27, 4:5, 11:6. Grace and works are exclusive. It is by one or the other, not both. Grace is unmerited. If I work for something, it is merited. you cannot resolve that contradiction. Eph 2:8-9..."

C says "I love it when people mention this verse. Please look at the whole context Eph 2:8-10."

T Says "Agreed, but my point is valid. They are exclusive for eternal life. Grace not works for eternal life. Yes, we should do good works. We were created for them, but but they are not a requirement for eternal life. We cannot deserve it. Again grace and works are exclusive. "by Grace, NOT by works" It does not say "only" at the end of that vs. If it did, the verse no longer serves a purpose because it no longer clarifies."

T said" Christ told the woman at the well. Drink once and you will NEVER thirst again. If you could lose eternal life, you would thirst again. Was he trying to trick her or deceive her, or was he telling the truth? He could have told her, if you drink of this water, and follow my commands good enough you won’t thirst again, or he could have told her, you might have to have a drink every once in a while"

C said "You are absolutely right. Faith is the beginning of the journey. It is not the completion of it. Losing salvation and losing the faith is something that we should all be on guard of. These are not my words, but the words of our Savior:"

T said "it sounded like you just agreed that you will never thrist again once you have eternal life?"

Trent said...

C said "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved Matt 24:9-13"

T says "Great end times verse, but again we need to look at context. Saved from what? The tribulation? what about those whose love grows cold? are they thirsty again or are they not delivered from the tribulation under discussion?"

C says "We must hold on to this faith until the end. We must not be led astray, and we must not follow decieving spirits and we must not walk away from the faith. We must hold firm to it until the end."

T says "We should or we end up with dead faith that will not accomplish God's will. However my eternal life is not merited. It is a free gift with no strings attached (I should not have to say free or strings because a gift is a gift.. the fact that I have to clarify should show you something does not match with how you are understanding it)"

T said "Carlus, If upon faith in Christ, I have eternal life, and eternal life is equivalent to salvation from the lake of fire, and the lake of fire is in the future, and then I lose it and then end up in the lake, not only was eternal life not eternal, I never was saved from the lake of fire."


C says "Eternal life is always eternal. Just because you lose it, does not make it any less eternal than if you would have retained it. We are talking about assurance, not eternal life. You may have lost the assurance of life eternal. The terms that you are using to describe Eternal life and that is the same as Assurance of Salvation shows me that we are definitely coming from different angles on our terminology. This is worth defining terms. What do you mean by Eternal Life? What do you mean by Assurance of Salvation? Why do you consider these the same?"

T says "Ok, I think I understand what you are saying here. However, if thats true, then eternal life is a joke.. what is the benefit of having it if I lose it? And you have the difficulty of explaining how God gives you eternal life freely because there is nothing you can do to earn it.. however he will take it away if you don't earn it??? Works and Grace are opposites. You cant have something for free and work for it. Its either free or its not free. If its not, then you are going against the clear teaching of Christ in John which is the only evangelistic book in the Bible written to unbelievers. The rest is written to those who have the gift. "

T said "Can someone be saved with just the gospel of John? Also, please show me somewhere in the new Testament what I must do to not only have eternal life, but know i have it? commitment? How much? Sacrafice? Can I own a car? home? clothes? How many hours per day must I serve him? Can I work to feed my family? When you had nebulous conditions to what you must do to have eternal life, you open up a can of worms. How much do I have to love him? What if my mom dies and I hate him for a few days? Does that make sense? Once you attach conditions to a gift.. where do you stop? When does God take it back?"

Trent said...

T said "If Belief is really not simply belief, God could have used words like follow my rules, commit tied in with eternal life, instead of rewards. "

Aahhh...Good point. So what we really need in this circumstance is a good Jew in order to help us understand what it means to believe. Jesus and the Apostles were Jews. We should look at it from their context, an not our 21st Century Western culture on what it means to believe."


T said "Christ was pretty clear I think. Note Jn. 6:69, Jn 8:24,Jn 9:35-36, Jn 10:26, Jn 11:26-27 (Martha was very clear) Jn 5:46 "believed moses you would have believed me" Many contexts make no sense if Believe means commit. And again it comes back to, is eternal life a reward or a gift? If we have to be good enough, then its not a gift. "

C said" Yes. This we can agree on. For all intensive purposes, at any one point and time, you are either walking in the faith, or you are walking outside of the faith. The point that I am trying to make is that once you begin your journey of faith, you can walk right out of it. Thank goodness God is merciful and will accept us back, but at the same time, we will have to persevere to the end, meaning when we die, we better be on the right track."

t said "I agree with everything you said, but my conclusion is that it has nothing to do with the gift of etenral life. If it did, then you would thirst again. You can fall out of the faith, but you can't fall out of his hands. However those he loves he chasens."

t said "This is a completely unscriptural idea. To determine if you are good enough, or have a measuring rod. God made a promise. I believe it. That is good enough. Right?

You right now cannot say you know you have eternal life, because you don’t know what God’s measure is. How much good do you have to do, and how much sin it to much?"

c says "Let's put it this way. We can all have an assurance of salvation, not because of when we first came to Christ, but because of the standard that He placed on us. If we do such and such, and this and that, then we can know that we have salvation. So the way I figure it, as long as we do such and such, and this and that, we are assured of our salvation. If we don't, then we need to get back on the right path with God."

t says "Please list the this and that and such and such that if we do we can Know we have eternal life and at what point we lose it. Personally, I know I have eternal life because I believe in Jesus Christ. I am curious how you know."

T says "My hope is you will consider these and realize that God wants you to know you have eternal life, he knows the future and what we will do, and he is not teasing us making us think he is giving us a gift, but in reality might take it away because we did not deserve it? "

C says "Of course I know that God has eternal life for me. He definitely knows the future, and he knows if I am going to die in the state of grace, on the path of faith, or off of it. As long as I persevere to my end, then I know that God will save me."

t says "so you do not know if you will spend eternity in the presence of Christ. I want you to. :) You can. "

Perhaps we can focus on grace and works.. or the difference between a gift and obligation? Or focus on John since it does say that these things are written so that you may believe.. regardless if you "believe" it means more then that, everything we need to know we have
eternal life must be in John.

Grace and Truth

Trent

Carlus Henry said...

Trent!!!

Long time no hear from. If your family is anything like mine, I am sure that they have been keeping you busy....

I will hopefully get a chance to respond to your comments, but I am glad that you are still around spreading the Gospel.

God bless...

Trent said...

Just got back from South America. :) Had a great time as well. Thanks for bearing with me.

God Bless you as well

Trent.

Carlus Henry said...

Trent,

With any conversation, it is very easy to confuse eachother when we are using terms that we assume that the

other knows, or shares the same definition as. So to better understand you, please explain the following:

1.) Difference between Salvation and Eternal LIfe. More importantly, can you have one without the other?
2.) perseverance
3.) tribulation

Okay. Looking over the conversation thread....I don't think that we are going to do much justice if I try to

approach all of the different topics that were mentioned, points of agreement and disagreement. And

while there are points that we do agree, I am going to focus on the points that I think we disagree (we may find

out that we agree on some of them, and it is the semantic issue again).

Carlus Henry said...

Trent (continued),


Areas where we disagree (your comments are italics):

Obedience is critical to salvation, but not eternal life.
1.) I believe that obedience is critical to both salvation and eternal life.
I also point you to 2 Tim 2:11-13. If we endure, we reign, if we deny he will deny us, but even if we are faithless, he is till faithful. There is rewards and discipline, but not a loss of eternal life. A denial of privileges, shame and even punishment yes.
2.) 2 Tim 2:11-13: I don't agree with your interpretation of this passage. From this passage, neither one of us can derive proof of our respective positions. A case can be made for you that it is not talking about the loss of eternal life, while a case can be made for me, that this is talking about God will not deny his grace to anyone, even if they are without faith.
I agree.. those who are not faithful, will not "inherit" the kingdom, but normally entering and inheritace would be two different things.
3.) I do not believe that you can separate inheriting the kingdom of heaven with entering the kingdom of heaven.
Remember, if Eternal life needs works, you have problems in romans, because grace and works are opposites,
4.) For clarification's sake: I do not believe you can earn eternal life
Romans 3:27, 4:5, 11:6. Grace and works are exclusive. It is by one or the other, not both.
5.) I believe that these verses are taken out of context, most of the time. The context of letter that Paul is talking about is not a Faith Alone vs. Faith and Works issue. It is a Christian vs. Judaizer debate. Judaizers believed that the Gentiles had to obey the whole Messianic Law - instead of being saved by Grace. That is the true context of Paul's letters.
They are exclusive for eternal life. Grace not works for eternal life.
6.) For clarification's sake, I believe that we are saved by Grace Alone. Absolutely 100%. I do not believe that we are saved by Faith Alone.
7.) For clarification's sake, I do not believe in the Tribulation (if you are referring to the time after Christians will be raptured from Earth, and will not have to endure the persecutions of the end times)

Carlus Henry said...

Trent (continued)...

However my eternal life is not merited. It is a free gift with no strings attached (I should not have to say free or strings because a gift is a gift.. the fact that I have to clarify should show you something does not match with how you are understanding it)

8.) Eternal life is a free gift from God. At the same time, you can return that free gift. You can walk away. If I knocked at your door, and offered you the keys to my Lexus (no, I don't have one...but if anyone out there wants to give me one...that would be just fine), you have a choice. You can either say, "Yes, Thank You", or you can slam the door on my face, rejecting the free gift.

and then I lose it and then end up in the lake, not only was eternal life not eternal, I never was saved from the lake of fire.

9.) My point exactly. So how can you be assured of Salvation if there is a possibility that you never had it to begin with? That does not sound like assurance to me.

And you have the difficulty of explaining how God gives you eternal life freely because there is nothing you can do to earn it.. however he will take it away if you don't earn it???

10.) God does not take away eternal life. You throw it back at His face and say "No, Thank you"

Many contexts make no sense if Believe means commit.

11.) Many contexts make no sense if believe is only mental assent and does not necessitate a working response. (John 3:36, John 6:27-29)

You can fall out of the faith, but you can't fall out of his hands. However those he loves he chasens.

12.) This one is probably worth some clarification. However...salvation and eternal life requires faith. If you walk out of faith, then how can you be given eternal life?

This is a completely unscriptural idea. To determine if you are good enough, or have a measuring rod. God made a promise. I believe it. That is good enough. Right?

13.) It is not unscriptural. Matt 5:20. Here is an example of a measuring stick. You see those folks over there....your righteousness has to exceed them if you want to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Please list the this and that and such and such that if we do we can Know we have eternal life and at what point we lose it. Personally, I know I have eternal life because I believe in Jesus Christ. I am curious how you know.

14.) 1 John 5:13 - writing what things so that you may know???? 1 John 5:1-2

Whew....that was a lot. I do agree that we should narrow our focus. Your suggestion regarding Grace and Works is a good one. However, hopefully, after reading my clarification points, you know that I do believe in Grace Alone. That is one of the Five Solas that we do agree on. Perhaps Faith and Works would be a better point of discussion. If we want to focus on John, I would suggest that before we do, then we need to have a better undertanding of what specifically was written so that we know we have eternal life. As I alluded to in my 14th point, I would say that following God's commandments are included in those things.

Either way, enjoying the discussion. Glad you and the family are doing good. God bless...

Trent said...

Hi Carlus. Nice job making things more concise. :) I am going to just hit the first post tonight.
you brought up the following points.

1.) Difference between Salvation and Eternal LIfe. More importantly, can you have one without the other?

I would say obviously you can. eternal life and Salvation from Hell no, but Most of the time in the New Testament and I would argue about all of the time in the old, Salvation is not eternal life. Thats why I try to clarify. Salvation is many times predicated on different actions. Eternal life is only gained by one condition. I find many people get confused by that because they grew up hearing them used interchangeably. do a word search in the NT on Salvation. Some are obviously eternal life. some are obviously not, and some you have to really look at context.
2.) perseverance
I think we both agree on this, we just don't agree on what the result is.
3.) tribulation
Do you feel we don't agree here either?

Okay. Looking over the conversation thread....I don't think that we are going to do much justice if I try to

approach all of the different topics that were mentioned, points of agreement and disagreement. And

while there are points that we do agree, I am going to focus on the points that I think we disagree (we may find

out that we agree on some of them, and it is the semantic issue again

Trent said...

1-7 I am going to leave. We have stated our positions, but I think where I will focus is on your last post. Well done in clarifying your Our positions. :) I do believe that the passages in Matt though are speaking about the future and that if you study the context you will probably agree. That was where Tribulation came up, and it sounds like we are both PreTribulation.

Grace and Truth

Trent.

Trent said...

Hello Carlus. Sorry, I knew what I wanted to address, but it took me a while to find the time to do so. Thank you for making things more concise :)

Carlus said "Eternal life is a free gift from God. At the same time, you can return that free gift. You can walk away. If I knocked at your door, and offered you the keys to my Lexus (no, I don't have one...but if anyone out there wants to give me one...that would be just fine), you have a choice. You can either say, "Yes, Thank You", or you can slam the door on my face, rejecting the free gift.

That illustration is lacking another possibility. In your example, I never accepted the gift. If I had believed in Jesus Christ, which means I had received the gift, I could then slam the door, spit on you, call you filthy names etc. If I lost it because of doing those things, then you had conditions which makes it no longer a gift. You are trying to attach conditions, with out calling them conditions. You are also saying that if those conditions are met, that is the same as voluntarily giving up eternal life.

If God says, if you believe in me you will have eternal life and not pass into judgement, or shall never die, etc, then is he telling the truth? he does not put an "unless" there. (jn 5:24 )


Carlus says "9.) My point exactly. So how can you be assured of Salvation if there is a possibility that you never had it to begin with? That does not sound like assurance to me.

I agree completely. Since works are uninvolved with our eternal life, you can truly be assured because you are believing in the one who promises it. 1 Tim 1:16 He is the one who saves us and we cannot lose it. Of course our assurance is because of our belief, so a person could lose assurance and still have eternal life.

Carlus says 10.) God does not take away eternal life. You throw it back at His face and say "No, Thank you"

actually, you have conditions that you consider the same as doing that. What exact conditions are those? Adultery and murder like David? In your theology, do you believe that David lost and regained eternal life? I doubt anyone who believed in eternal life would do that. What they do, in spite of what they may believe is live differently. Like people who smoke even though they know better. That is why we need to teach about the rewards and loss of rewards at the judgement seat of Christ.


Carlus says 11.) Many contexts make no sense if believe is only mental assent and does not necessitate a working response. (John 3:36, John 6:27-29)

Jn 3:36 is a wierd use and in many translations is translated believe. The word in the same verse as condition is believe. The same as when it says someone believed Jesus. It means mental assent. Jn 6:27-29 makes sense in context. He is telling them there is only one thing they can do. Thats believe. He is telling them they cannot work for it. If you are telling me you have to do more then believe in him for eternal life, then I think I have misunderstood your position. I thought you were saying its a free gift that you can return, but not its sounding like you have to work to gain it. Please clarify.

Trent said...

Carlus says 12.) This one is probably worth some clarification. However...salvation and eternal life requires faith. If you walk out of faith, then how can you be given eternal life?

Because you were given it at the moment you believed. Not after you remained faithful. there are rewards for remaining faithful, not gifts. I think you are confusing Eternal life and being saved from something?? Do you want to study the many passages on saved and salvation? Most are not on eternal life, some very obviously and some taking more study. The point being we need to study, not take for granted.

Carlus says 13.) It is not unscriptural. Matt 5:20. Here is an example of a measuring stick. You see those folks over there....your righteousness has to exceed them if you want to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Excellent verse. However I believe those are kingdom truths. Matt 5:12 gives some context as well. My question to you is, how do you gain righteousness that is "GREATER" then the pharisees.. so much so that you deserve heaven? I submit to you that its only by gaining the righteousness of Christ at the moment you believe. Again, please clarify if I have misunderstood you. It appears now that you are saying that you do not gain eternal life unless you do things which is different then saying that you can lose it if you do things.

Carlus says 14.) 1 John 5:13 - writing what things so that you may know???? 1 John 5:1-2

Context. 1 Jn 5:10-13 How do you know? Because you have believed. so this was not a list of how you can know you can lose eternal life. It reinforces my point. 1 John's primary purpose is in Chapter 1 vs 3-4 "these things we write to you that your joy may be full" and in vs 3 he is clear that he is writing to believers he wants to fellowship with.

Carlus says "Whew....that was a lot. I do agree that we should narrow our focus. Your suggestion regarding Grace and Works is a good one. However, hopefully, after reading my clarification points, you know that I do believe in Grace Alone. That is one of the Five Solas that we do agree on. Perhaps Faith and Works would be a better point of discussion. "

please clarify because based on some of your arguments above, it does not seem as though you agree with Grace alone or faith alone. It will help if I can understand if you are stating that works are implicit in belief, or if you are stating its faith alone, BUT works must follow or you lose it. Those are 2 distinct points. The first is more Calvinistic and the second Armenian as I understand it.

one last point. There's no record in Scripture of anyone ever being saved more than once. This implies that either there's
only one chance to "hold on" or else eternal security is
true. (In the chorus of the hymn "Ye Must Be Born Again"
the tenor sings, "ye must be born again". The bass
sings, "again" and "again" and "again". George
Boyajian quipped that he agrees with the tenor but he
disagrees with the bass.) Once you drink of the water you NEVER thirst again according to our Savior.


Carlus says
Either way, enjoying the discussion. Glad you and the family are doing good. God bless...


Thank you, me too. :)

Grace and Truth

Trent.