I ask in this way, because I believe it has 2 answers. Yes and No. Yes, because of Sin generally. If not for sin, there would not have been a fall, and thus, people will go to Hell because of sin. However, they will not be in Hell because of their sin. Christ died for the sins of the world and thus, they will specifically be in Hell because of their unbelief.
I want to quote "Grace" by Lewis Chafer for a moment (breaking or bending my own rules, but I hope it triggers some biblical discussion).
"....through the substitutinary death of Christ for all men as Sin-Bearer (John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:14,19) the ground of universal divine condemntation is now beause of the personal rejection of the Savior who bore the sin. This is set forth in His Word: "He that believeth on him is not condemnted: bue he that believeth not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18); "But he that believeth not shall be damnted" Mark 16:16."
"In confirmation of the fact that men are now condemned because of unbelief, it should be note that when the Spirit of God approaches the unsaved to convince them of sin, he does not same themk or blame them conerning the sins they have committed, instead he convicts them of the one sin only." Of sin, becuase they believe not on me" (John 16:9). So also, Christians are said to be free from all condemtnaion on the sole ground that they have believed on the Savior. (John 3:18. Cf 5:24; Rom 8:1; 1 Cor 11:32; 2 Cor 5:19)"
"At this point God offers but one remedy. That remedy is Grace."
"Men are either utterly condemned under the universal decree of the Judge of all the earth, or they are perfectly saved and safe in the grace of God as it is in Jesus Christ" Quotes are from pages 41-43.
I do not agree with everything Chafer says, but he puts this well in my opinion.
I submit that Christ died for all sin, and that people will only be in Hell if they do not believe in him. But, they will be in Hell because of sin, because with out the fall, we would not need a savior. All sin was put on Christ at the Cross. If we believe in Christ, we have life in his name or "eternal life."
Christ even died for the sin of unbelief. If he had not, we would all be going to Hell. But eternal life is gained by belief in Christ.
Thus, repentance cannot be a condition of eternal life, becuase the sin is already paid for. If we had to turn from it, then it was not paid for. If I must do something to have eternal life, then it is not unmerited, nor is it grace.
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Monday, December 17, 2007
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I like how you said that repentance cannot be a condition for everlasting life because if we had to turn from it then that implies that it was not paid for.
I think that Chafer does a great job too, but he is confusing the cause for the reason.
Unbelief is indeed the cause for one to go to hell, but it is not the reason. The reason is that a man does not have life.
A person can get busted for not showing up to court. This is the reason why he get's busted. But the cause may be that his car got stolen.
He is not busted for the reason that his car was stolen, he was busted for the reason of not showing up in the court.
Good thinking here, Trent!
Antonio
I follow this reasoning perfectly.
If repentance were a condition for eternal life it would be absurd, because who ever turns from ALL sin while in this human flesh? It is impossible.
Antonio, good clarification. Life is gained by Belief in Christ. Thanks for posting!
I Rose, I am glad you enjoyed it!
Hi Trent,
Just got through enjoying all your photos from the mission trip in India! We will be praying God will provide others to follow-up and nurture all that you were able to share with there!
Also, enjoyed your thoughts & comments here; interestingly enough we preached on this topic this morning. Our approach was as follows:
(1) 1John 2:2 Since the Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice to appease God's justice and wrath, was for all mankind's' sin, then all sin has been satisfactorily accounted for and God's holy wrath is appeased.
(2) Romans 4:5 However, His, once and for all propitiation is conditioned on man's receiving the righteousness of Christ, Eternal Life, and complete forgiveness by simple child like faith in Him, His Person and His Work.(1John 5:9-13)
(3) John 3:18 Sadly, unbelievers do not enjoy the desired result and favorable benefit of God's grace, not because of any fault in Christ's supreme sacrifice, but because they (unbelievers) "opt out" via their unbelief.
(4) Romans 6:23 Wages are a payment according to man's earned righteousness, based on the work that a person performs. In the eyes of God, all man's behavior apart from God's grace in the work of Christ is sin and is man's work, thus the wages earned are death.(Eternal separation from God & His righteousness 2Thess 1:9)
Unbelievers do not experience its efficacy, not because it has any fault but simply because they do not believe.(Rev. 20:15)
We went in to more depth and Scriptures, but in essence I think this captures our position.
Have a Christ centered New Year!
Pastor Bruce, thanks for visiting! I have been getting updates on some of the new believers being baptized and discipled, but the follow up continues and prayer is appreciated! Thanks for sharing your message as well.
I recently read the short piece on the GES website titled, "The Sin of Unbelief." It appears that this blog entry is based on that piece. In it we read, "A cause and a reason are not the same thing. Unbelief is the cause for the unsaved not having eternal life. Not having eternal life is the reason they are condemned to hell." In philosophical terms it might be clearer to say that unbelief is the instrumental cause, while not having eternal life is the efficient cause for condemnation. Any thoughts?
Trent:
YOU SAID:
"I ask in this way, because I believe it has 2 answers. Yes and No. Yes, because of Sin generally. If not for sin, there would not have been a fall, and thus, people will go to Hell because of sin. However, they will not be in Hell because of their sin. Christ died for the sins of the world and thus, they will specifically be in Hell because of their unbelief.."
Let me ask you this: What's the difference between sin generally, and the sin of unbelief? Isn't sin, well, sin? They can't be in hell for sin generally because Christ died for ALL SIN. He wiped the slate clean, so to speak. As sin and death came through one man, Adam, so remission of sin came for all through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, Romans 5:12.
So, according to you, the ONLY reason people can be in hell is for the sin of unbelief. If Christ died for ALL sin, then he died for the sin of unbelief, took away the punishment for unbelief and people could not be in hell for that particular sin. Now the question becomes, just what in hell are people in hell for? How can it be for unbelief? Unbelief is a sin and Christ died for that sin.
I don't see how you can have it both ways.
YOU SAY:
"I submit that Christ died for all sin, and that people will only be in Hell if they do not believe in him. But, they will be in Hell because of sin, because with out the fall, we would not need a savior. All sin was put on Christ at the Cross. If we believe in Christ, we have life in his name or "eternal life."
Now, how does you statement square with John 3:5? "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Also, my bible has a cross reference to Titus 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
Actually, belief isn't even mentioned in either of these passages, at this particular point, but the instructions are clear and to the point. Nicodemus was not some uneducated nincompoop. He was a member of the ruling council of Israel. Sanhedrin membership was a position of great authority. He believed in God. How can a man be born again, he asks? Go back into his mother's womb?
JESUS continues: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." vv 6-8
A regenerated person is according to Eph. 2:1 is dead in trespasses and sins and in verse 3 he says you WERE BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH.. Sounds to me like at this point, unless there is a divine miracle by the Holy Spirit, those people who by nature are children of wrath will be in hell. But wait, God in his mercy , while they were in that state, "made us alive."
So, I'm not sure how you explain this. In other words, unless there is a divine miracle by God making a spiritually dead person, alive by the gift of faith and or, belief, you are destined for hell. But Jesus died for unbelief, so how do you explain unbelievers going to hell?
I would say that belief or regeneration, or being born again is what is necessary. Belief is a part of regeneration. So I rather put it this way. If a person is not BORN from Above, by the power of the Holy Spirit, by God Alone, then he ends up in hell. Why in hell? Because he was not regenerated.
Maybe we are saying the same thing. I maintain that we would end up in hell, not because of something we didn't do toward our own salvation (believe), but because we were not born again by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Where do you disagree?
Hey Donald, thanks for visiting again! :) Lets see if I can't try and clarify this for you.
You said "So, according to you, the ONLY reason people can be in hell is for the sin of unbelief. If Christ died for ALL sin, then he died for the sin of unbelief, took away the punishment for unbelief and people could not be in hell for that particular sin. Now the question becomes, just what in hell are people in hell for? How can it be for unbelief? Unbelief is a sin and Christ died for that sin. "
No, I believe he died for all sin because the Bible is clear on this. Even the sin of unbelief. However Belief is how you gain eternal life which happens to be the only way to avoid hell. If you do not have Eternal life gained by belief in Christ, then you will be in Hell. This
Donald said "Now, how does you statement square with John 3:5? "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
he then explains, "that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Then Christ explains how you become born again or born of the Spirit. John 3:15-18 is very clear about how you are born of the spirit and how you gain eternal life or as John in John and Revelations sometimes calls it "Life in His Name"
Donald says "Also, my bible has a cross reference to Titus 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."
Different author who is writing to believers who already have eternal life. They got it the same way we did. Go to vs 8. Those who have "believed" in God should be careful to maintain good works as they are good and profitable to men."
Donald says "Actually, belief isn't even mentioned in either of these passages, at this particular point, but the instructions are clear and to the point. Nicodemus was not some uneducated nincompoop. He was a member of the ruling council of Israel. Sanhedrin membership was a position of great authority. He believed in God. How can a man be born again, he asks? Go back into his mother's womb? "
Nicodemus is clearly told it is by belief, and as I noted, Titus mentions belief as well, both in the passages noted.
Donald says "A regenerated person is according to Eph. 2:1 is dead in trespasses and sins and in verse 3 he says you WERE BY NATURE CHILDREN OF WRATH.. Sounds to me like at this point, unless there is a divine miracle by the Holy Spirit, those people who by nature are children of wrath will be in hell. But wait, God in his mercy , while they were in that state, "made us alive."
as we go on to another subject, keep in mind that you have this has to not contradict John. so lets look at it I think agreeing that John teaches eternal life is gained simply by belief in Christ. Moving on, in Eph 1:7 "in him we have redemption through His blood,(eternal life?) the forgiveness of sins (fellowship?)according to the richs of His grace which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and purdence... " vs 11 "...obtaining an inheritance..." vs 12 "..that we who first trusted in Chrsit should be to the praise of his glory." 13 "in Him you als trusted after you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation in whom also you BELIEVED you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise... " vs 15 " .. after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints.." vs 17 "Father of glory may give to you the spirit of wisdom..." vs 18-21 " ... that you may know what is the hope of his calling, what are the richs of the glory of His inheritance in the saints and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe according to the workng of His mighty power which worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the Heavenly places far above ... in this age and the age to come." I like to get things in context.. and please note, I just took excepts mainly because it takes solong to type. Please read the whole passage. There is a lot more underdiscussion here then simply believe for eternal life. This is speaking of rewards as well. Until we have believed in Christ and have life in his name, we are dead, and have no forgiveness for our sins either. But remember, there is a difference between forgiveness and justification. Roman 3 is clear that with out the righteousness of Christ we fall short. However, since Christ died for our sins, and not just ours but for the world,(note the comparison) he was the sacrifice once and for all. But payment for sin is not the only issue. Continue reading in the book of Ephesians.. especially Eph 4:1.
Donald said "So, I'm not sure how you explain this. In other words, unless there is a divine miracle by God making a spiritually dead person, alive by the gift of faith and or, belief, you are destined for hell. "
Yes, it is a miracle that at the moment of Faith in Christ we have life in his name. Whether faith itself is a gift is a whole discussion on its own. :) Obviously he did give us the ability to believe, and belief is not a choice, but to listen, and to meditate is
Donald said "I would say that belief or regeneration, or being born again is what is necessary. Belief is a part of regeneration. "
I think John is clear that Belief causes regeneration or the experience of being born again, and eternal life.
Donald says "So I rather put it this way. If a person is not BORN from Above, by the power of the Holy Spirit, by God Alone, then he ends up in hell. Why in hell? Because he was not regenerated."
Now that I went through all these passges, I think we do agree mostly LOL. Having life in Jesus or regeneration is gained by Belief in Christ. I need to read the complete post before answering LOL
Donald said "Maybe we are saying the same thing. I maintain that we would end up in hell, not because of something we didn't do toward our own salvation (believe), but because we were not born again by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Where do you disagree?"
How are we born again? I would say believe. I think you agree but if not clarify. So I think our disagreement is just that I used the precursor of belief in Jesus rather then also clarifying the result of Life in Jesus which is really what does keep us there. I think you made the same clarification that Antonio did actually and in my reply I thought I mentioned he was right. :)
Thanks for provoking me! :)
Love in Christ
Trent :)
YOU SAID:
How are we born again? I would say believe. I think you agree but if not clarify. So I think our disagreement is just that I used the precursor of belief in Jesus rather then also clarifying the result of Life in Jesus which is really what does keep us there. I think you made the same clarification that Antonio did actually and in my reply I thought I mentioned he was right. :)"
OK, I think we do basically agree. And of course Ephesians can't contradict John. And John can't contradict Ephesians.
One more clarification: YOU SAID: " But remember, there is a difference between forgiveness and justification. Roman 3 is clear that with out the righteousness of Christ we fall short."
Explain the difference between Justification and remission of sins, or as the modern translations put it, forgiveness of sins. To me being justified, declared righteousness, given a right standing before the Thrice Holy God, are the same time. And of course, being declared righteous, is not our righteousness, but the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. (I swear, I think we are saying the same thing, but using slightly different terms).
OK, while I'm at it, you say being born again means believing. I agree, but it seems that it is more than that.
What do you think it means in John 3:3 to be BORN OF WATER? And then Spirit. And terms like in Titus 3:5, the WASHING OF REGENERATION, to me do seem to refer to that divinely instituted rite, baptism. The Jewish listeners, having for centuries baptized their converts, and by the way, the infants and children of those converts, would have understood those verses as referring to baptism, don't you think? Water and Spirit and cleansing, like the cleansing of the leper etc., always were connected. Then when you have water, regeneration, washing, Spirit, and the WORD of God altogether, well that pretty well defines baptism.
I don't want to get off the subject because that is another whole issue, and I'm totally burned out on discussing it, but my point is yes, belief in Christ is an essential part of being Born Again. However, so is the "water and the Spirit," according to John, and also in Mark believe and be baptized, the jailer, believe and be baptized, in Acts believe and be baptized etc.
And the bottom line is that after all that, we can't believe without that divine miracle of regeneration.
I guess I have to continue to insist that we do not choose to believe. We can't, without God first enabling us. Like you favorite guy John records Jesus saying: I CHOSE YOU, YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE ME.
To put everything another way. Instead of talking about general sin, or the sin of unbelief putting in hell, I'd simplify the whole thing and say..you will be in hell if not BORN AGAIN BY WATER AND THE SPIRIT.
Belief, well yes, but belief is not possible without God FIRST doing what? Let Paul speak to you:
Eph 2:5--5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
So, if you end up in hell it's because Christ hasn't QUICKENED you so that you can believe in the first place. So are we back to the difference between the "cause of something, and the reason."? The guy not showing up for court, and the car not working. Somethings I think everyone makes this stuff too complicated.
Back to work until Sunday, so time is very, very limited. Later.
donald said "Explain the difference between Justification and remission of sins, or as the modern translations put it, forgiveness of sins. To me being justified, declared righteousness, given a right standing before the Thrice Holy God, are the same time. And of course, being declared righteous, is not our righteousness, but the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. (I swear, I think we are saying the same thing, but using slightly different terms)."
We could look at many passages, but probably 1 john 1:9 works. Its written to believers who are already justified. do a study for remission and forgiveness and you will find interesting contexts.
OK, while I'm at it, you say being born again means believing. I agree, but it seems that it is more than that.
What do you think it means in John 3:3 to be BORN OF WATER? And then Spirit. And terms like in Titus 3:5, the WASHING OF REGENERATION, to me do seem to refer to that divinely instituted rite, baptism. The Jewish listeners, having for centuries baptized their converts, and by the way, the infants and children of those converts, would have understood those verses as referring to baptism, don't you think? Water and Spirit and cleansing, like the cleansing of the leper etc., always were connected. Then when you have water, regeneration, washing, Spirit, and the WORD of God altogether, well that pretty well defines baptism.
I think it tells you what it means in the next sentance. water is born of flesh. If its not, there are millions of people including the criminal on the cross who believed in Christ yet will be in hell because they did not undergo water baptism. you are looking at one passage in John that according to your interpretation contradicts dozens of other passages. If it does, then you have to reinterpret all the others to say believe means be baptized, and that is definetely not in the text. Why not use the clear and easy passages to help understand the harder.. though IMO thats not hard since he does explain, and then explains exactly what a person must do to have eternal life in john 3:16. If Baptism was required for eternal life, John 3:16 would be written differently. I know you are discussing this on the grace church forums, and have avoided getting involved there, but you did bring it up. :)
I don't want to get off the subject because that is another whole issue, and I'm totally burned out on discussing it, but my point is yes, belief in Christ is an essential part of being Born Again. However, so is the "water and the Spirit," according to John, and also in Mark believe and be baptized, the jailer, believe and be baptized, in Acts believe and be baptized etc.
The question of what must I do to be saved was "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!" The fact that he got baptized shows he was following Christ. Claiming its required requires you to have a presupposition already. You don't get it soley from the text. I know this is an important tradition to you, and its an important thing, its just not required for eternal life.
And the bottom line is that after all that, we can't believe without that divine miracle of regeneration.
Wait... so you are saying we must be regenerate before we believe?... That one I think we can cover if thats what you are stating. Would you like to discuss that? Please clarify.
I guess I have to continue to insist that we do not choose to believe. We can't, without God first enabling us. Like you favorite guy John records Jesus saying: I CHOSE YOU, YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE ME.
We can discuss this too, but I should start another post.
To put everything another way. Instead of talking about general sin, or the sin of unbelief putting in hell, I'd simplify the whole thing and say..you will be in hell if not BORN AGAIN BY WATER AND THE SPIRIT.
Belief, well yes, but belief is not possible without God FIRST doing what? Let Paul speak to you:
Eph 2:5--5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
And I can say because I believed in Christ.. it appears you are saying you are saved and then you believe, which contradicts many passages.
So, if you end up in hell it's because Christ hasn't QUICKENED you so that you can believe in the first place. So are we back to the difference between the "cause of something, and the reason."? The guy not showing up for court, and the car not working. Somethings I think everyone makes this stuff too complicated.
Back to work until Sunday, so time is very, very limited. Later.
Ok, you definetely opened up a can of workms. :) Do you want to focus on baptism, or Regenerated before you can believe or do you consider them to interlocked and need to discuss them both?
Thanks for taking the time to talk Donald.
Love in Christ
Trent
Trent:
I haven't had time to read your post since I'm headed to work. I will answer you Sunday or Monday.
I will say you have to be "quickened," chosen, regenerated, born again, however you want to term it, BEFORE you can believe. Absolutely. Without God's regenerating you, you are under the wrath of God, and not only that, you are at enmity with God, and CANNOT believe, come to him or do ANYTHING for your salvation.
Just one added thing about belief:
You say the ONLY reason one is in hell is because he didn't RECEIVE with the Atonement provided. So, let me ask you this.
If Christ died for ALL of the sins of all the people, then he died for unbelief, right?
But this unbelief, is it a sin, or not? If not, why should unbelievers be punished for it? IF IT IS, THEN CHRIST UNDERWENT THE PUNISHMENT FOR IT, OR HE DIDN'T. IF he did, then why is that any different than any other sin you would be punished for? Of course, if he didn't did for the unbelief, then he didn't die for ALL sins. Which way is it?
I'm sick to death of discussing baptism, and the so-called order of salvation.
I'm just stating the whole trend of scripture when I say that without God choosing you before the foundation of the world, before your name iis put into the Book of Life, before you can believe any thing toward your salvation, you must be born again by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is a miracle strictly of God, from God, iniatied by God, and done TO YOU AND FOR YOU without your cooperation, without any input from you, without any cooperation from you, without any contribution from you. Period. Just like your physical birth, your spiritual birth is a divine miracle, without which you CANNOT see/enter the Kingdom of Light.
THAT is the biblical view of salvation. Nothing more, nothing less. Man is not just sick and needing medicine. He is DEAD and needs spiritual resuresstion. And we can't have a partially living corpse. The corpse is DEAD.
That is a can of worms, and it is exactly what fallen, depraved, humanistic man can't stand. They rebel against it, but that is to be expected, since the spiritual things of God MUST be spiritually discerned. The unregenerated man CANNOT discern the thinks of God. 1 cor 2:14.
Later.
Hi Donald, I will wait for you to read my posts, because I think I covered belief being a sin. That seems to be most of your post.
Donald says "I'm just stating the whole trend of scripture when I say that without God choosing you before the foundation of the world, before your name iis put into the Book of Life, before you can believe any thing toward your salvation, you must be born again by the power of the Holy Spirit. That is a miracle strictly of God, from God, iniatied by God, and done TO YOU AND FOR YOU without your cooperation, without any input from you, without any cooperation from you, without any contribution from you. Period. Just like your physical birth, your spiritual birth is a divine miracle, without which you CANNOT see/enter the Kingdom of Light. "
It sounds like you want to get into predestination. :) Lets leave that one in the back ground and focus whether someone is saved prior to belief.
Donald said "THAT is the biblical view of salvation. Nothing more, nothing less. Man is not just sick and needing medicine. He is DEAD and needs spiritual resuresstion. And we can't have a partially living corpse. The corpse is DEAD."
At the moment they are convinced of the truth and believe, they have eternal life. Not before as I will argue if thats your stance. :)
Donald said "That is a can of worms, and it is exactly what fallen, depraved, humanistic man can't stand. They rebel against it, but that is to be expected, since the spiritual things of God MUST be spiritually discerned. The unregenerated man CANNOT discern the thinks of God. 1 cor 2:14."
But can he trust in the Christ for eternal life? :) I say yes, if the Holy Spirit helps which I believe he does for those who are seeking or open to truth.
You have said it before, its what the Bible teaches, not our logic. Does the Bible teach regeneration before belief?
Trent said:
"I think it tells you what it means in the next sentence. water is born of flesh."
So, the word "water' in both of those passages were just some type of filler and didn't refer to anything?
I'm working on a response to your other posts, but I will say now, that you have the cart before the horse. How in the world can you "believe," before you are regenerated/born again? How can a spiritually dead person do anything? I'll go into that, although you said not to get into predestination. I won't, other than to say salvation includes many things, belief, regeneration, redemption, sanctification, glorification, adoption, foreknowledge, calling, etc. I admit you have a temporal order when discussing how salvation is applied, but remember, regeneration/salvation is an eternal, divine event. We can get into all that if you like, or if you would rather to all that later, that's fine. Maybe we are getting off the subject a little bit. I don't know. You question was about sin and hell, not regeneration, so maybe that's my fault for expanding the discussion.
Let me know if you want to refocus on the original question. We can discuss any and all subjects whenever you like, but maybe we should narrow the focus (or rather, maybe I should narrow the focus}. Let me know, or if you like, ask me a specific question that I can respond to. I think sometimes these replies get way too long.
Awaiting further instructions. You're the man!!
Trent, let's just cut to the quick here.
WHY DID YOU BELIEVE?
I believed because I was convinced that Christ gave eternal life to all who believed.
Note the following.
John 1:12 ... as many as recieved him he gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in his name.
John 3, Jesus explains how to become born again.. he does not say, you already are so don't worry about it.
Note John 3:15 whoever believes in him .. have eternal life, not who ever has will believe.
3:16 whoever believes will not perish. not he who is not perishing willl believe.
3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemtned, but he who does not believe is condemned already. So a regenerate person who is born again and quickened is condemned?
John 4 with the samaritan. She asked for the living water. He did not say you already have it. He says I can give it to you.
Vs 41, why did they believe?
John 5:24. At what time does someone have eternal life? has passed from death unto life?
John 6:29 ... the work of God is to believe? Vs 27 tells you for waht.
John 6:47.
John 7:37-39 If anyone thirst let him come to me. He who believes in me as the Scripture has said...
John 11:25
The order is always believe for eternal life.
What passages would you like to consider that you feel teach regeneration prior to Belief?
Its up to you if you want to cover unbelief as a Sin, or just continue this one for now. The blog is not overly busy where anyone is going to get lost. :)
Your ball. :)
Grace and Truth
Trent
In following these posts, may I ask this question?
Im wondering at what point did mankind "become dead in trespasses and sin"? Was it when Adam & Eve actually partook of the tree of knowledge of good & evil? If so, how is it they were still capable of having dialog with God.(Genesis 3) Then Scripture goes on to makes it clear that even Cain has awareness of God and response to God's conviction and appeal in Genesis 4? I'm thinking whatever we understand "dead in trespasses & sin" to mean, it must not mean what the typical calvinist requires it to mean?
Hi Abercrombie! Thanks for visiting.
Thats a great question and I want to consider it. I also wanted to mention something that I was thinking about last night in bed. How did the Old Testament Saints believe since they did not have the Holy Spirit? I know the Holy Spirit helps to convince us of the truth, and helps us interpret scripture, but obviously some truth can be learned even by those who do not have the Holy Spirit. Ok lets consider your question.
Abercrombie said "In following these posts, may I ask this question?
Im wondering at what point did mankind "become dead in trespasses and sin"? Was it when Adam & Eve actually partook of the tree of knowledge of good & evil? If so, how is it they were still capable of having dialog with God.(Genesis 3) Then Scripture goes on to makes it clear that even Cain has awareness of God and response to God's conviction and appeal in Genesis 4? I'm thinking whatever we understand "dead in trespasses & sin" to mean, it must not mean what the typical calvinist requires it to mean?
I tend to agree with you and I think its funny that I was thinking about the same type thing. Excellent point!
Grace and Truth
Trent
While the Holy Spirit did not function as fully in the Old Testament Saints, he did function. There are a lot of scriptures that mention the Holy Spirit as active in the Old Testament.
Here are a couple of scriptures for consideration. Great question thought:
"The Lord said to Moses, "Bring Me seventy of Israel's elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to The Tent Of Meeting, that they may stand there with you. I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of The Spirit that is on you and put The Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so you will not have to carry it alone." (Numbers 11:16-17)
"So The Lord said to Moses, "Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is The Spirit, and lay your hand on him." (Numbers 27:18.
Great question about the Holy Spirit in the OT. However, even though not active in the same way s the NT, no indwelling in the person, to best of my knowledge, he is active to some extent.
This is just a brief comment, as I'm at work. But a couple of verses to consider:
"The Lord said to Moses, "Bring Me seventy of Israel's elders who are known to you as leaders and officials among the people. Have them come to The Tent Of Meeting, that they may stand there with you. I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of The Spirit that is on you and put The Spirit on them. They will help you carry the burden of the people so you will not have to carry it alone." (Numbers 11:16-17)
"So The Lord said to Moses, "Take Joshua son of Nun, a man in whom is The Spirit, and lay your hand on him." (Numbers 27:18).
"The woman gave birth to a boy and named him Samson. He grew and The Lord blessed him, and The Spirit of The Lord began to stir him..." (Judges 13:24-25)
Sorry, was doing something else, and hit the wrong button and posted the comment again. Darn I hate that when I do that. Please forgive me.
Trent:
I didn't really ask the question I wanted to when I asked you "Why" did you believe. I should have been more exact and more careful, but asked you HOW YOU BELIEVED?
I can also quote scriptures to back up my position that a person's salvation is from God Alone, and NOTHING that a person can do. Good Grief!! How can a person in the flesh (unregenerated) do anything toward their salvation when the flesh is hostile to God? (Romans 8:5-8). Salvation is a Sovereign Act of God and UNLESS the Holy Spirit ENABLES the natural man to believe, he can't.
Now, just so you know, I am totally burned out on all this debating, especially since it is your quotes against my quotes and on and on. I don't mean you personally, but generally speaking.
So I swear, on a stack of bibles, this is my last post. I have so many books to read and other things to do.
So I wish everyone well, and good-bye.
This is not my post. I'm posting these comments for a friend who tried to enter them on your blog, but could not get the message to show up. So I said I would post it for him.
1) As an unregenerated person, you were of a carnal mind which is "enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be" (Romans 8:7).
2) In that state of mind, as a natural man, you were unable to recognize the things of God because the "natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (2Cor 2:14).
3) In fact, said Jesus, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
4) Furthermore, the devil has "blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2Cor 2:4).
So, Trent, my question to you is, how did you come to believe? Ultimately, you are espousing a salvation of merit. You say you were persuaded that Jesus is the way to eternal life, yet another person remains unconvinced. Therefore, you merit salvation and he does not. But beyond that, you contend that you were convinced when the Bible says that, in fact, you were blind, unable to recognize the things of God, unable to see the kindgom of God, hostile to the things of God.
You are taking credit for your salvation that the scriptures do not grant you. At the same time, you are diminishing the role of God in your salvation, reducing him to a mere facilitator who only provides the way to salvation. It then is up to us to, ipso facto, save ourselves through a process that is contrary to Scripture. This is a failure to properly humble oneself before Almighty God. The person who takes this position cannot in honesty praise and thank God for his salvation, but only that God has provided the means for that person to save himself.
D. Campbell
P.S. I don't know if he can respond since he had trouble in the first place. But his thoughts are very well stated and should be taken to heart.
Wow, heya Donald, you have been busy! ;)
Yes, the Holy Spirit was active at times, but he did not dwell inside of people.
Keep in mind also, that Nicodemus as an unbeliever was held accountable for knowing what the scripture said, and many people understand truths in Scripture prior to gaining eternal life and perhaps even never gaining them.
Old Testament Saints could have the Holy Spirit in them at times, however not all of them, yet they still understood scripture. It was not nessecary for them, so why is it nessecary for me? I think it is in Nehamiah (sp?) where the Scriptures are found and read for the first time in a long time, and Isreal rejoices understanding them.
Many cultists understand the Creation in Genesis better then believers, yet some of them will never put their faith in Christ.
As to how I believed, it is normal for a child to believe what his parents tell him. My mother did not lie to me that I was aware of and so since I trusted her, when she told me about Christ and that if I believed in him I would have eternal life, I believed her, just like I believed her if she said we were going to Disneyland tomorrow.
I was convinced of the truth of what she said and I gained eternal life because she was right! :)
Donald says "I can also quote scriptures to back up my position that a person's salvation is from God Alone, and NOTHING that a person can do. Good Grief!! How can a person in the flesh (unregenerated) do anything toward their salvation when the flesh is hostile to God? (Romans 8:5-8). Salvation is a Sovereign Act of God and UNLESS the Holy Spirit ENABLES the natural man to believe, he can't.
Your body is dead in sin even with Christ in you. I don't think these are good proof texts. You are better off arguing predestination IMO, but then you have to deal with the verses that talk about our responsibility, Christ's call to us to believe, as well as the fact that God is a rewarder of those who seek him. I do NOT understand everything, but I do understand some things that God has made very clear in his word. I addressed belief before life. What passages will you use to show that you do not have to believe to have eternal life?
You keep quitting the debate :P but at least don't leave until you defend your eternal life before you believe statement. You changed topics instead of defending it from the Bible. :) thats not like you.
I was a bit busy over the weekend, and know you have a life too. If it takes you a few days or longer to respond, its all good.
To Donalds Friend. :)
Not sure why you could not post, but thanks for not giving up! I am reading your post as I reply to it.. so I don't guarantee I will answer it all right now.
Donalds friend said
"1) As an unregenerated person, you were of a carnal mind which is "enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be" (Romans 8:7)."
Read the end of Chapter 7:13 and continue through verse 12 of 8."If YOU live in the flesh you will die" Who is You? Believers living in the flesh cannot please God. "...I serve .... with the flesh the law of Sin" Romans is written to believers and I think since believers can live in the flesh, this has nothing to do with an unbeliever coming to faith in Christ.
2) In that state of mind, as a natural man, you were unable to recognize the things of God because the "natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (2Cor 2:14).
I think I addressed some of this above. Your reference is wrong I think as well. even unbelievers are responsible for some knowledge, and their response determines if they will recieve more. Remember Nicodemus. Get me the reference, and lets see what is being discussed.
3) In fact, said Jesus, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
Amen. He describes how to be born again to Nicodemus, since Nicodemus is ignorant just a few more verses down.
4) Furthermore, the devil has "blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2Cor 2:4).
wrong quote again.. :( the parable of the sower demonstrates this as well. However, some do believe. I wear a seat belt so that I might not die in an accident yet it is not sure that I won't. It is preventative. When I witness, I pray that the Holy Spirit will remove the blinders that the god of this world has put on them. This still does not mean that a person is regenerate before belief.
So, Trent, my question to you is, how did you come to believe? Ultimately, you are espousing a salvation of merit. You say you were persuaded that Jesus is the way to eternal life, yet another person remains unconvinced. Therefore, you merit salvation and he does not.
No, I was blessed that I had a mother who told me of the promise when I was young. How can being convinced of the truth of something have merit? Since the Bible says it is with out merit, I do as well. Your stating a claim that I do not make as mine does not win the arguement. If I say you claim that God chose you because you were better makes it a salvation you merited is the same thing. Its putting words in your mouth.
But beyond that, you contend that you were convinced when the Bible says that, in fact, you were blind, unable to recognize the things of God, unable to see the kindgom of God, hostile to the things of God.
No, what I am doing is letting the Bible speak for itself. It says that "Anyone" who believes in Jesus Christ has eternal life. I believe that. It says that God loves the world. I believe that. I admit that not everyone has the same opportunity. Saul of Tarsus's conversion experience would convince about anyone I think that Jesus was the Christ. Your belief requires you to ignore to much, and assume that God created some people for damnation that have no choice in the matter. I believe that mans response works with God's knowledge because the Bible teaches both.
You are taking credit for your salvation that the scriptures do not grant you.
No, I am only saved because of Christ. However, my response biblically is required for him to save me. I know that I am saved eternally because of Christ's promise, even if I do not persevere. I know I am predestined because I believed.
At the same time, you are diminishing the role of God in your salvation, reducing him to a mere facilitator who only provides the way to salvation.
Well, lets look at it this way. Since you have no choice, if God is loving, why did he just not make you with out sin? Why does Jesus tell people to believe for eternal life, and not say, since you have eternal life you will believe? You putting words in my mouth does not make it so. Instead of doing that, lets talk about some scripture. You brought up one passage that I addressed that is talking to believers and thus does not prove your point. What else do you believe teaches that we have no choice and have eternal life with out belief in Christ?
It then is up to us to, ipso facto, save ourselves through a process that is contrary to Scripture. This is a failure to properly humble oneself before Almighty God.
more words representing something I do not hold to. Scripture please! :) I was very very clear that scripture does hold to belief in Christ = eternal life above.
The person who takes this position cannot in honesty praise and thank God for his salvation, but only that God has provided the means for that person to save himself.
umm... I don't think this merits a response. Either you do not truly understand what I believe..? Christ died on the cross for my sins or I would be going to hell... so I can't honestly praise him and thank him for my salvation??? I can do nothing but recieve the free gift of eternal life? Ok.. scripture! :)
I look forward to discussing some specific scriptures in regards to eternal life being gained with out belief in Christ as I think that was the object. I already know that Calvinism is a logical building block of beliefs, but I think it lacks and even contradicts scripture in to many ways. I think the main topic is "do you have to have eternal life to believe" so lets discuss that. Thank you for being willing to do so and I hope you figure out how to post! :)
Love in Christ
Trent
Trent, I've argued all of this before on the other board, and it gets nowhere.
Like I said I've so burned out that I am swearing off all of these debates for good.
As for defending my position, like I said, been there done that, and sorry I even started this one.
Now, if you like, answer the one that D Campbell posted (actually I posted it for him because he had trouble with his post showing up). If you answer him and he is still having trouble I will post his answer to you, for him.
I know I'll be accused of cut and run, but that's not it at all. I can defend the position (basically what is known as the 5-Point Calvinist position) quite well, but I am so burned out I can't even think right now. I would not do justice to the position. But if you want to take on Dennis, that would be a good debate. I think he is fresh and ready to go. So have at it.
Peace
Hi Donald. :) Take a break and come back. Calvinism is easy to defend.. until you hit scripture. Then to make it easy, it requires presuppositions and turning from what clear scripture seems to be clear on IMO. I used to be calvinist because it was all I heard. Then I had someone challenge me to let Scripture speak for itself. It took time because I was very stubborn, but over time, I was convinced.
So lets pick a scripture, and discuss it. Lets focus on it unless we need to go to another scripture that is very clear just to clarify what it can't mean.
We KNOW Belief in Christ = eternal life. Its very clearly taught in simple to understand scriptures, so we know that if works = salvation, its not eternal life. (if you disagree, lets discuss a passage or 2 I quote up above) If you believe rom 8 is the only passage that teaches regeneration nessecary before belief, and don't agree its speaking to believers, we can focus on that one, or your friend and I can. :) Iron sharpens iron my friend.
Nice try my friend, but I have lost heart for all this. I don't know, maybe in a few months or something.
You said:
"Iron sharpens iron my friend." It does, and I've been there, done that. But right now I'm pressed flat. I just don't have it in me to go through all this again. Not just with you, but all over the place, time and time again, with the same responses, basically.
However, when Dennis (his name, so you know, is Dennis Campbell) reads your response he will answer you and I will post his response if he can't do it.
I'm so tired of saying this, and this is MY last word because I could quote, let's see, in the back of my bible I have eight pages of scriptures that I have written down over the years dealing with salvation and whether it's one or a thousand, I beg off the discussion.
An unregenerated person, without God drawing him (Acts 6:44) (dragging, like in Acts 16:19) CANNOT come to Christ. People like to keep quoting the "Whosoever" believes, or comes etc., and that is true. Whosoever comes, comes, but the "whosoever" includes only those first drawn efficaciously by God. The "draw" does not mean common grace, previenent (i think that's the term Arnimians use) grace making it possible to come.
Good Grief!! Even in the one verse in John 6:44 the drawing is not wooing, like I guess I'll woo the pale of water from the well, or coaxing, but efficacious. Those He "draws" Jesus goes on to say, I WILL raise up at the last day. So I draw efficaciously, then I will raise those up.
I'm done. Please carry on with Dennis. The only time you will hear from me is if his post shows up under my name, and I will preface it with: DENNIS RESPONDS.
Peace, brother!
DENNIS RESPONDS:
Trent, this is going to be long, because I believe it is important to include my original comments and your responses. Otherwise, it makes no sense.
1) I wrote: As an unregenerate person, you were of a carnal mind which is "enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be" (Romans 8:7)."
You responded: Read the end of Chapter 7:13 and continue through verse 12 of 8."If YOU live in the flesh you will die" Who is You? Believers living in the flesh cannot please God. "...I serve .... with the flesh the law of Sin" Romans is written to believers and I think since believers can live in the flesh, this has nothing to do with an unbeliever coming to faith in Christ.
This verse has everything to do with the unregenerate man. When we were in our unregenerate state, we were hostile to God and powerless to submit to God. This is obvious on the face of it. That is the clear meaning of the scripture: The mind of sinful man is death and unable to submit to God. We as believers “are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in [us].”
2) I wrote: In that state of mind, as a natural man, you were unable to recognize the things of God because the "natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (2Cor 2:14).
You responded: I think I addressed some of this above. Your reference is wrong I think as well. even unbelievers are responsible for some knowledge, and their response determines if they will recieve more. Remember Nicodemus. Get me the reference, and lets see what is being discussed.
Yes, my reference was wrong – I wrote 2 Corinthians when it is 1 Corinthians, chapter 2. My apologies. In that, Paul says that “We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” Again, Paul is speaking with the utmost clarity: Before one has the Spirit, he cannot accept the things of God. Not will not, but cannot. We understand because we have the Spirit. So, when you say that you were convinced through human means you are speaking against the scripture.
3) I wrote: In fact, said Jesus, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
You responded: Amen. He describes how to be born again to Nicodemus, since Nicodemus is ignorant just a few more verses down.
Yes, he describes how to be born again. That isn’t at issue here. The issue is, where does the ability come from? Until you are born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God. How, then, were you convinced? Well, Lydia listened to Paul speak (Acts 16:14) and “The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.” She didn’t respond to Paul’s message because she was convinced by Paul, but because the Lord opened her heart. First, the Word is preached. Then, God brings about the response. Again, this is quite clear.
4) I wrote: Furthermore, the devil has "blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2Cor 2:4).
You responded: wrong quote again.. :( the parable of the sower demonstrates this as well. However, some do believe. I wear a seat belt so that I might not die in an accident yet it is not sure that I won't. It is preventative. When I witness, I pray that the Holy Spirit will remove the blinders that the god of this world has put on them. This still does not mean that a person is regenerate before belief.
I find your statement puzzling. You say that you pray that the Spirit will remove the blinders from the person to whom you are witnessing, yet you seem to be saying that if that is not done, this person still can respond to your message. How?
5) I wrote: So, Trent, my question to you is, how did you come to believe? Ultimately, you are espousing a salvation of merit. You say you were persuaded that Jesus is the way to eternal life, yet another person remains unconvinced. Therefore, you merit salvation and he does not.
You responded: No, I was blessed that I had a mother who told me of the promise when I was young. How can being convinced of the truth of something have merit? Since the Bible says it is with out merit, I do as well. Your stating a claim that I do not make as mine does not win the arguement. If I say you claim that God chose you because you were better makes it a salvation you merited is the same thing. Its putting words in your mouth.
You continue to be wrong, Trent. Your mother told you of the promise, but according to the scriptures you were unable to recognize the truth of it. I’m not putting words into your mouth: Logically, if you say that you were able in your own power to do what someone else was unable to do, then you are claiming salvation by merit.
6) I wrote: But beyond that, you contend that you were convinced when the Bible says that, in fact, you were blind, unable to recognize the things of God, unable to see the kingdom of God, hostile to the things of God.
You responded: No, what I am doing is letting the Bible speak for itself. It says that "Anyone" who believes in Jesus Christ has eternal life. I believe that. It says that God loves the world. I believe that. I admit that not everyone has the same opportunity. Saul of Tarsus's conversion experience would convince about anyone I think that Jesus was the Christ. Your belief requires you to ignore to much, and assume that God created some people for damnation that have no choice in the matter. I believe that mans response works with God's knowledge because the Bible teaches both.
Your argumentation simply does not make sense. That the Bible says that anyone who believes in Christ has eternal life is not the issue. The issue is HOW that is accomplished. Jesus said (John 6:44) that "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him….” The word translated “draw” means to compel with superior power. So we see a clear delineation of salvation: We are chosen by God (Ephesians 1), the Father draws us to Christ, and our hearts are opened by the Spirit to respond to the message. Where is the human effort in this?
7) I wrote: You are taking credit for your salvation that the scriptures do not grant you.
You responded: No, I am only saved because of Christ. However, my response biblically is required for him to save me. I know that I am saved eternally because of Christ's promise, even if I do not persevere. I know I am predestined because I believed.
Again, Trent, you are not speaking logically. If you say that you were saved because you believed through your own human effort, you are taking credit for your own salvation. And the Bible does not say you were predestined because you believe, but the opposite: You believed because you were predestined.
8) I wrote: At the same time, you are diminishing the role of God in your salvation, reducing him to a mere facilitator who only provides the way to salvation.
You responded: Well, lets look at it this way. Since you have no choice, if God is loving, why did he just not make you with out sin? Why does Jesus tell people to believe for eternal life, and not say, since you have eternal life you will believe? You putting words in my mouth does not make it so. Instead of doing that, lets talk about some scripture. You brought up one passage that I addressed that is talking to believers and thus does not prove your point. What else do you believe teaches that we have no choice and have eternal life with out belief in Christ?
I don’t know why God did things the way he did them, other than to say that if God is perfect then he is bound by his own perfection to do everything in the way that is best. I cannot conceive of God saying, “This is not the best way to do it, but I’m going to do it anyway.” I only know what the scriptures have revealed to me. I accept what they say, and I abandon myself to the mercy of God. The scriptures say with abundant clarity that we who believe were chosen, drawn to Christ and enabled to believe. I don’t dispute that, and I am unable to understand why you do.
9) I wrote: It then is up to us to, ipso facto, save ourselves through a process that is contrary to Scripture. This is a failure to properly humble oneself before Almighty God.
You responded: more words representing something I do not hold to. Scripture please! :) I was very very clear that scripture does hold to belief in Christ = eternal life above.
10) Yes, that is exactly what you believe, based on your theology, Trent.
11) I wrote: The person who takes this position cannot in honesty praise and thank God for his salvation, but only that God has provided the means for that person to save himself.
You responded: umm... I don't think this merits a response. Either you do not truly understand what I believe..? Christ died on the cross for my sins or I would be going to hell... so I can't honestly praise him and thank him for my salvation??? I can do nothing but recieve the free gift of eternal life? Ok.. scripture! :)
According to your theology, Christ did not save you. He only provided the means to salvation and the rest is up to you. I am just taking your theology to its logical conclusion. But as the scriptures say quite unambiguously, that is not the case. You were unable to respond to the Gospel until God enabled to you. To say otherwise is to take credit for your salvation.
You concluded: I look forward to discussing some specific scriptures in regards to eternal life being gained with out belief in Christ as I think that was the object. I already know that Calvinism is a logical building block of beliefs, but I think it lacks and even contradicts scripture in to many ways. I think the main topic is "do you have to have eternal life to believe" so lets discuss that. Thank you for being willing to do so and I hope you figure out how to post! :)
This is a straw man. I never said that eternal life is attained without belief in Christ. We must believe, but as we are told in Ephesians 2:8 the very faith that is necessary to believe is a gift of God. Salvation is a work of God from start to finish. To say otherwise is to do no less than contend with the very Word of God. It is lacking in humility.
Trent, regarding your comment that "I know that I am saved eternally because of Christ's promise, even if I do not persevere": It is not you who persevere but God who preserves you. 1Thess 5:23-24: "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass."
You see, Trent, we cannot take any credit for our salvation, nor for our persevering.
First of all, I said I was going to swear on a stack of bibles blah, blah, Well, I didn't! I am burned out, but you will think I was running away from the debate because I could not defend my position of regeneration before a person can believe. So here is my feeble attempt to carry on. THIS, however, WILL BE MY LAST DEBATE on the internet. I will not get myself into this situation again. And another reason I'll finish this is because you are a truly nice guy and I need to finish what I started. Soooooooooo!!!!
TRENT, YOU STATED:
"Hi Donald. :) Take a break and come back. Calvinism is easy to defend.. until you hit scripture. Then to make it easy, it requires presuppositions and turning from what clear scripture seems to be clear on IMO. I used to be calvinist because it was all I heard. Then I had someone challenge me to let Scripture speak for itself. It took time because I was very stubborn, but over time, I was convinced. "
Trent, Trent, Trent!! I'll let that statement pass because it must have just been hyperbole on your part. "Until you come to Scripture." We shall see!!
And from a previous post you said:
" What passages will you use to show that you do not have to believe to have eternal life?
You keep quitting the debate :P but at least don't leave until you defend your eternal life before you believe statement. You changed topics instead of defending it from the Bible. :) that's not like you."
Talk about putting words in someones mouth!! I NEVER said you do NOT HAVE TO BELIEVE to have eternal life? I'm not sure I can even call that a "straw man," argument since it is such an overstatement.
How about defending my position, which is that a person has to be regenerated/born from above, BEFORE they CAN believe? I maintain that a fallen, unregenerated, dead in sin, at enmity with God, depraved sinner CANNOT believe UNLESS first ENABLED to by the divine miracle and power of the Holy Spirit. THAT'S what I will defend.
Now, just a note to start. It says in John 3:8:
"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
I quote this verse because I want to be careful not to reduce the mystery of salvation and conversion to a mechanical sequence that can be monitored with mathematical precision. Having said that, I think we can at least recognize the principles to which God generally operates in bringing someone to saving faith. I'm not one to put God into a little black box and say this is the ONLY way salvation and conversion works. Anything is possible with God and I always try and keep that in mind.
FIRST SCRIPTURE: MATTHEW 22:14:
"“For many are called, but few are chosen.”---I'm going to state this in a different way. John and Mary are both CALLED . Both "hear" the gospel, but John is converted and Mary isn't. What is the difference internally between the two? Externally, both "heard" the call, or the Word. One is converted and one isn't.
SECOND SCRIPTURE:
1 THESSALONIANS 1:5
For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake. "
So the call can come externally to all. Both John and Mary "heard" it. But the Word also comes in POWER and in the Holy Spirit. The example that comes to my mind (such as it is) is something we have all experienced. You are in class and an announcement comes over the loudspeaker "A car with the license number 1234 has it's lights on." Everyone in the class heard that announcement and basically ignored it. The one person immediately KNEW, internally, that was meant for him alone. It's his car. Now that may not be a perfect analogy, but it makes the point of Matthew: Many are called, but few chosen.
The point I'm trying to make is that the external call is indiscriminate. Everyone "hears" it. The external call is meant for everyone, all people, all classes etc. It can be resisted and in most cases is. Acts 7:51.
However, the internal call of God, those CHOSEN, not just called, is a different situation. John was GIVEN the "spiritual ears," to understand the call--1 cor 2:14 and Acts 16:14. Mary was not and she was not converted.
I don't want to start listing the thousand scriptures to support my position since we are both familiar with them, and don't need to regurgitate them over and over. This has already gotten longer than I intended.
So I'm going to answer my own question. The difference between John being converted and Mary not, is simply this: God effectually called John and did not chose Mary. Any other conclusion leads to salvation by merit. It leads to, and advocates a false gospel of gigantic proportions. It says, ultimately, that God died for, well, essentially no one. It says that to make the Atonement effective depends not on the Sovereignty of God, but on unregenerated man to "make a decision for Christ." That is utter blasphemy according to scripture.
No matter how you state it, Trent, you either have salvation and conversion coming from God Alone BEFORE any lost person is enabled to believe, or you have some type of cooperation between man and God--man helping God because of some merit within one that the other does not have, instead of the position that NO ONE has ANYTHING to bring to God without that divine enablement.
In conclusion, IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JOHN AND MARY within each of them, or is the reason one is converted and one isn't, solely God's choosing? I say it is God that makes the difference without man having any part in their conversion whatsoever.
PART II
Sorry I had to post this in two parts, but I had other things I had to take care of. So Part I and Part II state my position. Of course, people have written 1,000 page books on this very subject but I'm not able or wanting to go that in depth. It isn't necessary, since the way of salvation is so clear in Scripture.
------------------------------
Again, I maintain, along with scripture, the deplorable, hopeless state of the natural, fleshly, unregenerated man. How can any one turn to God on their own, who has no spiritual life, no inclination whatsoever to seek God? In fact, not only does the natural man not seek God, he is positively an enmity with him.
I ask you, without being regenerated/born from above by the power of the Holy Spirit how can this lost, miserable soul who is in the following condition do anything toward his own salvation?
You go against the plain teaching of scripture and give man merit when he has none. Man's heart is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." (Jer. 17:9). His mind is BLINDED by Satan (2 Cor. 4:4) and darkened by sin (Eph 4:18), so that his thoughts are only evil continually (Gen. 6:5). His affections are totally upside down, so that he loves what God hates, and hates what God loves. His will is enslaved from good (Rom. 6:20) and hostile to God (Rom 8:7). He is without righteousness (Rom 3:10), under the curse of the Law (Gal. 3:10) and is the captive of the Devil. His condition is, should I say, about as hopeless and hopeless can get. He CANNOT work out his salvation for there is NOTHING good in him (Rom. 7:18) He then, needs that divine miracle of REGENERATION, a miracle even more miraculous than his physical birth, which he had no part in.
There is only One who can effect that change from the natural man wallowing in the kingdom of darkness, and loving every second of it, to the spiritual man living in the kingdom of light: God created man, and God Alone must re-create him. Man is spiritually dead and nothing but all-mighty power can make him alive.
It is nothing by the pride of man, against the plain teaching of scripture, that insists that man has the ability, without divine intervention first, to believe, to create their own faith (since I believe you maintain that faith is not a free gift of grace) to in effect, save themselves by "making a decision" for Christ.
As you see, I included a quote from Romans 8. Unlike the GES people and their interpretation that that passage is talking about "carnal" Christians I certainly don't agree with that assessment.
In Romans 8:1-9 there is a division stated, but it is not between carnal and spiritual Christians. It is a division between those who walk after the flesh (the unregenerate) and those who walk after the Spirit (they that are Christ's). There is no third category.
Those walking after the flesh are hostile to God. If you haven't been regenerated, you are therefore, by definition, walking after the flesh. In fact you CAN do no other. Hence, you are hostile to God.
Hi Donald. looks like I have a lot to answer :) its hard to resist I know.
"An unregenerated person, without God drawing him (Acts 6:44) (dragging, like in Acts 16:19) CANNOT come to Christ. People like to keep quoting the "Whosoever" believes, or comes etc., and that is true. Whosoever comes, comes, but the "whosoever" includes only those first drawn efficaciously by God. The "draw" does not mean common grace, previenent (i think that's the term Arnimians use) grace making it possible to come. "
You are choosing to think that the verses you quote rule out human volition which is contradicted to many times in other scriptures. You cannot ignore that portion just so that calvinism is true. God is a rewarder of those who seek him. Even the heavens give evidence of God. Gods grace is for everyone, thus to some extent all are drawn. However, different people do have different experiences I.E. Saul/Paul. Remember, Christ died not just for us but for the world!
It is clear that whosoever believes is saved, and God loves THE world. How his will works with human volition I don't know, but like the Trinity, both are clearly taught. Ignoring some verses for others is not the way to deal with it. Its also hard to discuss with you things when you jump around. I thought we were going to deal with the regeneration before belief issue first? That was your claim, I gave some verses to you, and you did not address it at all. :) Lets cover it, I am very interested as it seems thats a requirement for your theory.
Hello Dennis. Thanks for the interaction! :) Ok, let me take a look at your response here.
Dennis said "1)
This verse has everything to do with the unregenerate man. When we were in our unregenerate state, we were hostile to God and powerless to submit to God. This is obvious on the face of it. That is the clear meaning of the scripture: The mind of sinful man is death and unable to submit to God. We as believers “are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in [us].”
You did not address the context here. You made statements. I tried to point out that the context seems to be dealing with Carnal Believers, not unbelievers. You also said that "sinful man is death and unable to submit to God." define submit? The ninevites repented and were spared from God's wrath.
Dennis wrote "2)
Yes, my reference was wrong – I wrote 2 Corinthians when it is 1 Corinthians, chapter 2. My apologies. In that, Paul says that “We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” Again, Paul is speaking with the utmost clarity: Before one has the Spirit, he cannot accept the things of God. Not will not, but cannot. We understand because we have the Spirit. So, when you say that you were convinced through human means you are speaking against the scripture."
I would again disagree. Continuing into verse 3, I think he is discussing the same thing as above. Carnal Christians. 1 John discusses also the natural man and the new creature that cannot sin. We still have 2 natures. Read these verses in context from ch 2 vs1 to chapter 3 vs 17. These people who cannot comprehend are Believers. Remember Christ said "IF you love me you will keep my commandments." Loving him is not the same as having eternal life. We understand these things if we are spiritual.
3) As I mentioned to Donald, please present your evidence for being regenerate before belief. Belief is a requirement, and stating otherwise is not a good argument.
4) You did not correct the quote here, please do so so I can look it up.
Dennis said "I find your statement puzzling. You say that you pray that the Spirit will remove the blinders from the person to whom you are witnessing, yet you seem to be saying that if that is not done, this person still can respond to your message. How?"
Because I do believe that is is and can be more difficult for some people to believe then others. I do believe the Holy Spirit can be involved in it, and because the Bible teaches it. As a child, my mother shared with me about Christ and I believed. I would have believed my mom if she had told me the moon was made of cheese or Santa was real but because I believed about Christ I gained eternal life. It was easy. In India with active demonic involvment, I believe its different. I believe that if I had walked into each home, and quoted john 3:16, that there woudl have been some converts, but not 150+. It is our responsibility to spread the Gospel. There are people going to Hell right now because the harvest is plentiful but workers are few. Are they without excuse? NO, but are we? Are we giving them the same opportunities to believe that we had? NO. That is why I pray.
5) Dennis says "You continue to be wrong, Trent. Your mother told you of the promise, but according to the scriptures you were unable to recognize the truth of it. I’m not putting words into your mouth: Logically, if you say that you were able in your own power to do what someone else was unable to do, then you are claiming salvation by merit."
Making this statement does not make it true. Please show me in scripture that belief is not needed for regeneration. I will again clarify. Being convinced that something is true is not a choice, and as such is a non merit. You stating otherwise also does not make it true.
6) Dennis says "Your argumentation simply does not make sense. That the Bible says that anyone who believes in Christ has eternal life is not the issue. The issue is HOW that is accomplished. Jesus said (John 6:44) that "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him….” The word translated “draw” means to compel with superior power."
ok, lets discuss this. Show me that this means that the Father forces salvation and then you believe? You still are putting the cart before the horse. Your interpretation is based on a prior assumption. vs 35 says "he who comes to me shall never hunger and he who believes shall never thirst." it does not say he who will never hunger or thirst believes. vs 36 tehn states that their problem is they did not believe, not that they were not regenerate. John 6:47 all states belief as the deciding factor as well. It could say he who is regenerate has eternal life which although true it is not how you become regernate. vs 37 you would consider to teach that God forces those he chooses to go to heaven regardless and the rest he created for Hell. Consider it to work with Belief first. John 12:32 says "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself" is that forced? Context determines meaning I think you have to agree. This way it would not be taken as compulsive but a moral pull on one’s
life. Thus those that believe are drawn to him.
Dennis says "So we see a clear delineation of salvation: We are chosen by God (Ephesians 1), the Father draws us to Christ, and our hearts are opened by the Spirit to respond to the message. Where is the human effort in this? "
Human effort is not the issue although you keep bringing it up. I believe eternal life is gained by belief in Christ, you believe it is forced upon you, and then you have to believe. This passage has many issues in it and a lot more then just eternal life. It has to do with future rewards as well as present deliverance and forgiveness. vs 12 and 13 I believe make my point again. Heard, Trusted, and then after believing sealed. vs 19 believed. The focus even here is still believed. How that works with Gods forknowledge, I will not try and understand. Like eternity and the trinity, I do not argue that Bible teaches it. You are trying to remove Human choice, response and responsibility and do not want to deal with passages that teach it. ( it seems) This does not show regeneration before belief. Eph 2:8-9 we are saved through faith, and it is a gift, not works. we agree of course on the last part but you are arguing the first. Note chapter 4:17. these are believers he is telling not to walkthat way. This goes back to 1 Cor and the others. Chapter 5 talks about rewards and those who inherit or will not inherit in the kingdom of God. Believers can be these things!
It is a great passage to argue predestination, but that is not something I disagree with.. although we might disagree with some of our understandings. Currently the discussion was supposed to be on regeneration giving eternal life before and with out belief.
7) Dennis said "Again, Trent, you are not speaking logically. If you say that you were saved because you believed through your own human effort, you are taking credit for your own salvation. And the Bible does not say you were predestined because you believe, but the opposite: You believed because you were predestined."
How do you figure that being convinced of a truth is effort? I can try not to and still be convinced, so you are not being logical. Also, as I showed, the Bible shows belief before eternal life/regeneration. Regardless of how you look at predestination, that is the point. I believe it is based on his foreknowledge working together with our responsibility and choice.
8) Dennis wrote "I don’t know why God did things the way he did them, other than to say that if God is perfect then he is bound by his own perfection to do everything in the way that is best. I cannot conceive of God saying, “This is not the best way to do it, but I’m going to do it anyway.”
What is going on in this world is a result of him allowing us to have free will, which apparently is the best way. If you are stating everythign is his action, then God sins. You have to make a decision. Does man make choices, or are we truly robots? Adam and Eve were forced to sin then? This is one of the inconsistencies in my opinion of Calvinism. Is God the author of evil? is damning 1/3 of the angels to hell a good thing, or a result of allowing them to choose?
Dennis says "I only know what the scriptures have revealed to me. I accept what they say, and I abandon myself to the mercy of God. The scriptures say with abundant clarity that we who believe were chosen, drawn to Christ and enabled to believe. I don’t dispute that, and I am unable to understand why you do."
LOL I was going to say the same thing! I am trying to take all of it though. The passages I brought up, and the ones you did and keeping it context. Your theory requires regeneration before belief. I do not believe that is taught and in fact demonstrated the opposite. I also dealt with the scriptures you brought up. I know I do not understand everything, but I do know what some very simplistic passages that are milk teach and I work to harmonize those that are more difficult with those that are simple, not move on and ignore them. Lets narrow this down if we can again, and focus on Regeneration before belief. I have not read the additional posts below and will address them as well.
9) Dennis wrote: "It then is up to us to, ipso facto, save ourselves through a process that is contrary to Scripture. This is a failure to properly humble oneself before Almighty God. "
responded: more words representing something I do not hold to. Scripture please! :) I was very very clear that scripture does hold to belief in Christ = eternal life above.
Dennis said "Yes, that is exactly what you believe, based on your theology, Trent. "
Show me? I hold to Eternal life is by belief in Christ and nothing else. Show me how that is contrary to scripture? If you believe that is contrary to scripture, I hope you believed it at one time.. Donald I think will disagree with you on this. You have not proven that Jesus was wrong in the verses I gave, (you did not address them) nor have you proved that eternal life is given before belief. (the verses you gave can be easily understood in ways that do not contradict Jesus Christ) I look forward to your response on this one.
11) Dennis wrote: "The person who takes this position cannot in honesty praise and thank God for his salvation, but only that God has provided the means for that person to save himself. "
I responded: umm... I don't think this merits a response. Either you do not truly understand what I believe..? Christ died on the cross for my sins or I would be going to hell... so I can't honestly praise him and thank him for my salvation??? I can do nothing but recieve the free gift of eternal life? Ok.. scripture! :)
Dennis said "According to your theology, Christ did not save you. He only provided the means to salvation and the rest is up to you. I am just taking your theology to its logical conclusion. But as the scriptures say quite unambiguously, that is not the case. You were unable to respond to the Gospel until God enabled to you. To say otherwise is to take credit for your salvation."
You have said that belief in Christ does not give eternal life. I gave verses that clearly state that it does. If your theology requires that to not be true, then I think you need to review it. Thats the bottom line IMO. If you believe the Holy Spirit is involved in enabling, I have no problem with that. regeneration before belief however is contradictory to many passages. I do believe God enables or allows for anyone to have eternal life. I do not believe he disallows anyone as the logical conclusion of calvinism requires.
Dennis said "This is a straw man. I never said that eternal life is attained without belief in Christ. We must believe, but as we are told in Ephesians 2:8 the very faith that is necessary to believe is a gift of God. Salvation is a work of God from start to finish. "
and I believe that eternal life is the gift, but I understand why you believe it is not. Consider it that way and then if makes sense with Jesus's claims. I followed the logical conclusion, that if you are regenerate, and a new creature, that you have eternal life. Perhaps it would help if you spelled out the order for me so I don't misunderstand..
Dennis said "To say otherwise is to do no less than contend with the very Word of God. It is lacking in humility."
If I misunderstood, I apologize. and I think perhaps I misaddressed some things above.. My understanding is that you believe a person is born again and regenerate before they believe. That would mean they have eternal life with out believing, correct? Please clarify. My position is that a person is regenerate and born again at the moment he believes in Christ.
To make this more on topic, you believe people will be in hell because God created them to go there. Only if they were created to go to heaven will they avoid it. I know its a simplification, but it is the "logical" conclusion if I understand you correctly.
Thanks for this, and I am going to do some more reading in Eph again. Its been a while since I have addressed the predestination issue. :)
Grace and Truth
Trent
Donald, I dont know if I will get to yours today, I have a new job but I will review them. :)
Dennis, you said "Trent, regarding your comment that "I know that I am saved eternally because of Christ's promise, even if I do not persevere": It is not you who persevere but God who preserves you. 1Thess 5:23-24: "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass."
You see, Trent, we cannot take any credit for our salvation, nor for our persevering."
Amen, God preserves me regardless of my actions, I totally agree, and that was my point. I look to his promise to me, not any of my promises or actions for him. But when I am spiritual, I strive for the inheritances set aside for those who remain faithful as 1 Pet Challenges us!
Good clarification!
Peace and Truth
Trent
Donald, I just perused the first part. :) I admit I might have used a little more "challenging" language to hopefully get you to continue :D
I am glad it worked. I am going to review your 2 posts when I have the time to give it the attention it deserves. :D
Trent:
I'm at work so this will be brief.
I don't follow your reasoning here. I point out in many, many verses that you have to be regenerated/born again from above, and you must be enabled by the Holy Spirit before you can believe or even realize there is anything or anyone to believe in.
YOU SAID:
"You are choosing to think that the verses you quote rule out human volition which is contradicted to many times in other scriptures. You cannot ignore that portion just so that calvinism is true."
That is a false assertion. The passages speak plainly to the issue at hand, which is: How can the natural man, before being enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit, believe? And likewise, you cannot ignore scriptures that show your position is incorrect. Your position, that man by his own volition, before being born again, can believe, is pleasing to man and man-centered, but totally unbiblical.
YOU SAID:
"God is a rewarder of those who seek him."
ROMANS 3:10-12--As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[a]
You are avoiding the issue. How can an unregenerated person, dead in trespasses and sin, seek God?
YOU SAID;
"It is clear that whosoever believes is saved, and God loves THE world."
Once again, you are avoiding the issue. No one is maintaining that "whosoever believes is saved."
Everyone without exception that believes will be saved. I don't disagree with that.
Trent, explain to me how someone believes before they are born again, since the scriptures say that is impossible with man.
I'm not jumping around. It just seems like that because you keep avoiding the issue. As long as you refuse to answer, on biblical grounds, how the natural man, by his own will is able to believe, there is no point going on.
Now, you asked for scriptures and I provided a few. Please deal with them. I provided these scriptures:
"You go against the plain teaching of scripture and give man merit when he has none. Man's heart is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." (Jer. 17:9). His mind is BLINDED by Satan (2 Cor. 4:4) and darkened by sin (Eph 4:18), so that his thoughts are only evil continually (Gen. 6:5). His affections are totally upside down, so that he loves what God hates, and hates what God loves. His will is enslaved from good (Rom. 6:20) and hostile to God (Rom 8:7). He is without righteousness (Rom 3:10), under the curse of the Law (Gal. 3:10) and is the captive of the Devil. His condition is, should I say, about as hopeless as hopeless can be. He CANNOT work out his salvation for there is NOTHING good in him (Rom. 7:18) He then, needs that divine miracle of REGENERATION, a miracle even more miraculous than his physical birth, which he had no part in."
Those scriptures show the hopeless state of the natural man and the impossibility of believing before being born again.
I guess we are at the point of having to agree to disagree.
Hey Donald, I am going to address your last before your prior since its a bit shorter. :)
HEB 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
So Faith must be present before pleasing as well as he is rewarder of those who seek him.
Donald sais "I don't follow your reasoning here. I point out in many, many verses that you have to be regenerated/born again from above, and you must be enabled by the Holy Spirit before you can believe or even realize there is anything or anyone to believe in."
I think I adressed them all but you did not address my points or the verses that state belief first. If I missed one lets review.. if you brought them up below I will comment. But even as you state your point, you are not saying what you said before, and that is that regeneration or being born again is prior to belief. That is what I am challenging.
Donald said "That is a false assertion. The passages speak plainly to the issue at hand, which is: How can the natural man, before being enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit, believe?"
If it was plain, we would not be disagreeing. :) I feel Jesus is clear as well. Why is it that overwhelmingly the bible points to the responsibility of you or I to believe if in fact it is not a choice for one to consider. Man is either chosen and regenerate and will believe or he cannot? Thats like me holding you responsible for us being in Iraq. :) You have no control so its silly.
donald said "And likewise, you cannot ignore scriptures that show your position is incorrect. Your position, that man by his own volition, before being born again, can believe, is pleasing to man and man-centered, but totally unbiblical."
show me which one I have ignored? Thus far I believe I have addressed each. brought up ones that contradict regeneration before belief, and took your thoughts to their logical but unpalatable conclusions and those you do not want to discuss. ( by the way, please don't read tone into this. :) a little frustration, but all friendly. I know you have some of the same)
Donald Quoted "ROMANS 3:10-12--As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[a]
all includes you and I. By the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified. vs 9 shows he is including himself in this. Not even Paul the apostle, so again, this does not rule out nor contradict Heb. This does not support regeneration before belief. What it does is prove my point in vs 22. I recieve and Paul recieves the righteousness of Christ by believing. As I continue to point out, belief is always the point, not those who have eternal life will believe.
Donald says "You are avoiding the issue. How can an unregenerated person, dead in trespasses and sin, seek God?"
I said
"It is clear that whosoever believes is saved, and God loves THE world."
donald says "Once again, you are avoiding the issue. No one is maintaining that "whosoever believes is saved."
Everyone without exception that believes will be saved. I don't disagree with that.
Trent, explain to me how someone believes before they are born again, since the scriptures say that is impossible with man."
Where does it say that it is impossible for a man to believe before he is born again? I think thats something you are reading into it.. or I missed the verse.
Donald says "I'm not jumping around. It just seems like that because you keep avoiding the issue. As long as you refuse to answer, on biblical grounds, how the natural man, by his own will is able to believe, there is no point going on. "
As I seem to continually repeat, I do not believe you "WILL" to believe. That is impossible to do with anything. You are convinced something is true regardless of your will. If you don't want to believe something, then it takes more convincing. What I am trying to do is get you to see the logical conclusion of what you are saying and not addressing. The Bible says whoever believes has eternal life. It does not say that some cannot have eternal life, or that God created people and angels just to damn them. THat is the logical conclusion of what you are stating, and you have not backed it up IMO. The verses I have gone over in context seem to be easily understood with in the context of what I am stating. A believer even paul and live carnally and be separated from God. An Unbeliever like Cornelius can want to find God.. want to please him, even though he is not able to with out belief.. and others will respond IF they hear the gospel and may not if they don't. Remember Nicodemus was held accountable for not understanding scripture before he was saved.
Now, you asked for scriptures and I provided a few. Please deal with them. I provided these scriptures:
I don't follow your reasoning here. I point out in many, many verses that you have to be regenerated/born again from above, and you must be enabled by the Holy Spirit before you can believe or even realize there is anything or anyone to believe in.
YOU SAID:
"You are choosing to think that the verses you quote rule out human volition which is contradicted to many times in other scriptures. You cannot ignore that portion just so that calvinism is true."
That is a false assertion. The passages speak plainly to the issue at hand, which is: How can the natural man, before being enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit, believe? And likewise, you cannot ignore scriptures that show your position is incorrect. Your position, that man by his own volition, before being born again, can believe, is pleasing to man and man-centered, but totally unbiblical.
YOU SAID:
"God is a rewarder of those who seek him."
ROMANS 3:10-12--As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[a]
You are avoiding the issue. How can an unregenerated person, dead in trespasses and sin, seek God?
YOU SAID;
"It is clear that whosoever believes is saved, and God loves THE world."
Once again, you are avoiding the issue. No one is maintaining that "whosoever believes is saved."
Everyone without exception that believes will be saved. I don't disagree with that.
Trent, explain to me how someone believes before they are born again, since the scriptures say that is impossible with man.
I'm not jumping around. It just seems like that because you keep avoiding the issue. As long as you refuse to answer, on biblical grounds, how the natural man, by his own will is able to believe, there is no point going on.
Now, you asked for scriptures and I provided a few. Please deal with them. I provided these scriptures:
Donald says "Those scriptures show the hopeless state of the natural man and the impossibility of believing before being born again."
"You go against the plain teaching of scripture and give man merit when he has none. Man's heart is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." (Jer. 17:9). His mind is BLINDED by Satan (2 Cor. 4:4) "
We addressed this. I already told you that I understand that the Holy Spirit can be involved with the revelation of Truth. but I do not believe it is forced. If they do not want to listen.
and darkened by sin (Eph 4:18), so that his thoughts are only evil continually
since in context these are believers, how does this prove that unbelievers cannot believe before regeneration?
" (Rom. 6:20) and hostile to God" Yes, these are believers! Context context! this shows that a believer can be separated from God. Not eternally as is also clear, but in relationship and blessing. That is what we have discussed some about the place of forgiveness.
" (Rom 8:7). He is without righteousness " this passage I think would be worthy of study. However if you read the whole chapter, he is dealing with believers. Believers who in vs 12 are told if they live in the flesh they will die. vs 17 gives a reward for us if we suffer with Christ. vs 6 to be carnally minded is death.. these are believers so I don't see this as a proof text but I do want to look at it further.
"(Rom 3:10), under the curse of the Law " covered above
"(Gal. 3:10) and is the captive of the Devil. His condition is, should I say, about as hopeless as hopeless can be. "
This chapter I see as further proof of Belief giving eternal life. 3:2,6,7,8,9. However the main f ocus then is not eternal life for unbelievers, but in vs 1 reminding them the truth! 2:16! we have believed in Christ that we might be justified! Belief first again!
Donald said " He CANNOT work out his salvation for there is NOTHING good in him "
Yes, that is why the only way to have eternal life is belief in Christ. You know we agree with that.
Donald says "(Rom. 7:18) He then, needs that divine miracle of REGENERATION, a miracle even more miraculous than his physical birth, which he had no part in."
Again, this is Paul, a believer who has nothing good dwelling in him. How does that prove an unbeliever must be regenerate before he believes?
Please address my logical conclusions of your points, and thank you for doing the scripture. Romans Ch 8 I think is the most interesting even in context has some challenges for me to consider but the others I don't see as at all relative to our discussion, and one that is more challenging compared to the dozens that are so clear that belief proceeds life? :)
Thank you again for this being important enough to discuss and I will reveiw and respond to your other 2 when I can. I thought this would be short LOL.
Love in Christ
Trent
Trent:
This is getting so long it is getting out of hand. If you don't mind, we can go over your last post paragraph by paragraph.
I'm at work and will answer the first paragraph of your post tonight or tomorrow.
You said:
"Hey Donald, I am going to address your last before your prior since its a bit shorter. :)
HEB 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
So Faith must be present before pleasing as well as he is rewarder of those who seek him."
Also, you said:
"I think I adressed them all but you did not address my points or the verses that state belief first. If I missed one lets review.. if you brought them up below I will comment. But even as you state your point, you are not saying what you said before, and that is that regeneration or being born again is prior to belief. That is what I am challenging."
So I will deal only with this part first. Then we can go on to the next. Maybe that way it can keep the discussion more to the point.
If this is not agreeable with you, let me know.
TRENT:
HEB 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
-----------------------------------
That is a great scripture and I agree with it completely. However, I'm not sure what it has to do with regeneration before faith/belief.
It goes through the list of the great people of faith and says that their works are pleasing to God. Absolutely. In fact the scriptures say that works without faith are sin. That shows what value God places on the works of His people. Works done by Born Again Christians are, indeed, pleasing to God.
Trent, you said that I'm not saying what I said before. That is incorrect. If in posting from work in a hurry or for some other reason, I said something different other than regeneration precedes faith, I apologize, because that would be a misstatement on my part. You cannot believe before the Holy Spirit enlightens you/regenerates you, and you receive the gift of faith which enables you to believe.
I maintain, and will continue to maintain, because I am supported by the whole of Holy Writ, that before a person can see the Kingdom of God he must be born again. In John 3:3 it is not believe then be born again. When asked how this is possible, Jesus responds, you must be born of water and the Spirit. Even this verse, to me, is crystal clear.
Do you have to have faith to have eternal life? Of course you do, and when regenerated you are given that faith as a free gift, through the grace and mercy of God.
The fact that we are passive in regeneration is evident when Scripture refers to it as being "born" or "born again" (cf. James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:3; John 3:3-8). We did not choose to be made physically alive and we did not choose to be born -- it is something that happened to us; similarly, these analogies in Scripture suggest that we are entirely passive in regeneration.
This sovereign work of God in regeneration was also predicted in the prophesy of Ezekiel. Through him God promised a time in the future when he would give a new spiritual life to his people:
26A new heart will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27And I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall heed My ordinances and do them. EZEKIEL 36:26-27.
When Jesus speaks of being "born of the Spirit" (John 3:8), he indicates that it is especially God the Holy Spirit who produces regeneration. But other verses also indicate the involvement of God the Father in regeneration: Paul specifies that it is God who “made us alive together with Christ" (Eph 2:5; cf. Col 2:13). And James says that it is the "father of lights “who gave us new birth: "Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth that we should be a kind of first fruits of his creatures" (James 1:17-18).
Finally, Peter says that God "according to his abundant mercy has given us new birth ...through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3, ). We can conclude that both God the Father and God the Holy Spirit bring about regeneration.
When I say that regeneration comes "before" saving faith, it is important to remember that they usually come so close together that it will ordinarily seem to us that they are happening at the same time. As God addresses the effective call of the gospel to us, he regenerates us as we respond in faith and repentance to this call. So from our perspective it is hard to tell any difference in time, especially because regeneration is a spiritual work that we cannot perceive with our eyes or even understand with our minds. (Scriptural passages John 3:5; John 6:44, 65; Acts 16:14; Eph 2:4-5; Col 2:13)..
So you challenge me, Trent, and I will answer to the best of my ability (which isn't saying much). I'm no theologian, just a average person occupying a pew on Sunday mornings.
I'm trying to keep this short. Oh, and you say I haven't responded to your scriptures. It's not that I am ignoring them, but it's probably because I've done so much debating etc, recently, I've lost track of what verses you are talking about, specifically. So respond to my verses, and tell me which one you want me to respond to.
But remember, all the verses you use as proof-texting, talking about believing, or faith etc., always come with the question: HOW are you enabled to believe. What is it within you that makes you different than the person next to you that didn't believe? If it is something you did, or something within you, then you are preaching salvation by merit/works.
Trent, take your time to answer all of this, because I know there is a lot to cover. But since I have some time, I wanted to respond to some comments you made a few posts back.
YOU SAID:
"I think it tells you what it means in the next sentence. water is born of flesh. If its not, there are millions of people including the criminal on the cross who believed in Christ yet will be in hell because they did not undergo water baptism. you are looking at one passage in John that according to your interpretation contradicts dozens of other passages. If it does, then you have to reinterpret all the others to say believe means be baptized, and that is definitely not in the text. Why not use the clear and easy passages to help understand the harder.. though IMO thats not hard since he does explain, and then explains exactly what a person must do to have eternal life in john 3:16. If Baptism was required for eternal life, John 3:16 would be written differently. I know you are discussing this on the grace church forums, and have avoided getting involved there, but you did bring it up."
You are referring to the John 3:5 passage. I meant to ask you what you meant by saying ""I think it tells you what it means in the next sentence. water is born of flesh."
You say baptism isn't mentioned in the verse. For the sake of argument, I'll say OK. But the verse certainly doesn't say, and the entire bible never says, that water means flesh. I mean, if anything, it would refer to a "spiritual cleansing," like it meant in the OT.
I don't, and never have, maintained that one absolutely has to be baptized to be saved. I have said that is the normative means provided, but it certainly doesn't mean if you are not baptized, you end up in hell.
The passage speaks clearly for itself. Nicodemus asks how can one be born again and Jesus says you must be born of water and Spirit. You don't need to go to any other verse. Jesus tells him exactly what must be done.
Then, instead of taking what Jesus said in his response, you say go to John 3:16. That's fine, but why go there when Jesus has already explained how to see the Kingdom?
So John 3:16 says "whosoever believes in him..." Exactly right! Whosoever believes will be saved. No one is disputing that, as mentioned before.
Trent, the question is (and I'm getting tired of repeating it) how do you think a unregenerated person can believe so as to be saved, unless they have been first enabled to do so? With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
How to explain regeneration is answered by John 3:8.
One other point, I wanted to mentioned. You keep emphasizing the following point:
"How do you figure that being convinced of a truth is effort? I can try not to and still be convinced, so you are not being logical."
Now, Trent, I have seen that statement many times in the literature of the GES and it has always left me puzzled.
I don't understand the point of that statement when you are referring to one's salvation.
Sure, if you are talking about something in the secular world, such as you are convinced that 2 times 2 equals 4, then I see the point of that statement. Although, in many things it takes massive amounts of effort to believe something is true.
However, when you use that statement to refer to salvation, then it is total nonsense.
What it does is beg the question and obscures the main issue:
How can a person that is wallowing in the kingdom of darkness be "convinced" that the Spiritual things of God are true, when the Scriptures say repeatedly that without first being drawn, or enlightened by the power of God, it is impossible to discern spiritual things.?
According to the bible you can't possibly be convinced of the truth of the scriptures, unless your mind has been opened by being regenerated first so you can understand.
I know that is a totally repulsive concept to man, but Holy Writ is crystal clear on this.
OK, I've said my piece.
Peace be with you
TRENT:
This is just posted as food for thought, since you seem to think that Romans 8:7-8 refer to something called a "Carnal Christian."
"Although the carnal Christian heresy may be a perfect match for our hedonistic, self-centered, relativistic, materialistic, man-worshiping culture, it is a deadly, soul-destroying, blasphemous teaching. It denigrates God by teaching that unholy, unrepentant, self-idolaters have fellowship and favor with the thrice holy Jehovah. It denigrates Christ by teaching that His merits (i.e., His precious blood and life) are ineffectual in changing human hearts. It denigrates the Holy Spirit by teaching that the Spirit of holiness cannot effectually apply Christ's atoning death to the elect. It denigrates the Church by teaching that she comes to the wedding feast with soiled and defiled garments. How can professing Christians adhere to a teaching that says one can be a truly saved person yet not love Jesus Christ. 'Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him' (1 Jn 2:3-5). 'If you love Me keep My commandments' (1 Jn. 14:15)"
comments by Brian Schwertley
P.S. You don't need to take the time to respond to this, since I would bet you totally disagree with the sentiments expressed. I just happened to run across the comment and put it here so you can see there is a lot of disagreement with that whole concept.
Question? If Calvinism is true when it states only the "Elect" (chosen of God) are enabled "to believe" after being regenerated; then "how?" can anyone say any doctrine... [Quote:...is a deadly, soul-destroying, blasphemous teaching.]
Non-elect souls are DEAD regardless which belief they subscribe too!
While the "Elect" would never (supposedly) subscribe to a "soul-destroying doctrine".
We even have a church here in our community that has those in attendance who are staunch 5-point Calvinists but they themselves claim to be convinced they are the "non-elect"ones??
Go figure!
< www.CalvinistChurch.com >
Hi Donald. I hope you are doing well, and keeping less busy then I. One point I wanted to bring up.
You said ""Although the carnal Christian heresy may be a perfect match for our hedonistic, self-centered, relativistic, materialistic, man-worshiping culture, it is a deadly, soul-destroying, blasphemous teaching. It denigrates God by teaching that unholy, unrepentant, self-idolaters have fellowship and favor with the thrice holy Jehovah."
First, no way it teaches that they have fellowship or favor. Your are mixing up your theology with what it is saying. They are not in fellowship or in favor. That is the issue.
Second, its what does the Bible teach about it? If these are carnal Christians, then they are whether we like it or not. It means it is not a proof text for regeneration before belief.
As far as the rest, your argument seems to be based on dead in sins meaning they cannot believe. Thus you have people who are non elect and going to hell regardless of being held accountable for something they cannot do, then you have those who are regenerate and elect yet have not believed, and then those who are regenerate, and believed.. though why they had to believe does not seem clearly spelled out. Thus, belief is not nessecary for eternal life, only that God Chose you, and forced some to be his, and some he created to damn. That is the result regardless of the terms used to make it seem nicer.
It appears we will have to disagree. I appreciate you spending the time to try and spell it out, but I have to think it goes against the clear teaching of Christ, and also against the justness and love of God.
I know I have eternal life because I believe and that is the sole condition given by Christ.
Peace and Truth
Trent.
Abercrombie, you said "Non-elect souls are DEAD regardless which belief they subscribe too! "
I think you point out Donalds difficulty. It sounds like you are requiring election for eternal life based on your understanding of a few passaages, where as the Bible clearly gives the condition of belief in Christ for eternal life.
I have eternal life because I believed in Christ, and I know I have it, because I know I believe NOW.
Thank you for visiting, and my apologies for being sporadic
Grace and Truth
Trent
Hi Trent:
MATTHEW 1:21--"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
Notice, He shall his people FROM their sins, not in them.
1 THESS; 4:1-7--"
1Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness."
First of all, that was a quote from Brian Schwertley, not my remarks, although I certainly tend to agree more with him than those that, almost gleefully, advocate something called a "carnal Christian."
Secondly, there are two divisions of people in the world: the lost and the saved. Not three divisions: the lost, the Christian, and the carnal Christian.
Personally, I think two mistakes are made by people on both extremes. On one extreme are those that confound or mix justification and sanctification. Or to put it another way, who can't seem to separate Law and Gospel. Those are the legalistic morons, and they are not only a pain to deal with, but preach a false gospel. On the other extreme are those that totally separate justification and sanctification. Those are the Antinomianins. It's the old heresy of Nicolaitan Gnosticism. I'm telling you, some people's kids just never get it. They also preach a false gospel, like most people on the extremes of anything.
I find it bordering on blasphemy to glorify "carnal Christians." The scriptures throughout Holy Writ exhort us to glorify God and lead lives of Holiness and obedience. Of course, as Luther said, we all sin every day. True enough. But for one to pretend to be Christian while leading a life that cannot not be distinguished from the lost, is absurd. One who makes a habit of sin and doesn't even pretend to follow the example of Christ, is to me, a false professor, a hypocrite, repulsive, obnoxious to fellow Christians, and, basically, for lack of a better term, an idiot. Babble all you want about the poor, pitiful, carnal Christian, but that person had better check his premises.
2 TIMOTHY 3:1-5:
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
Note, especially, verse 5. "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof."
As an aside, it is worthy of note that in the book of Acts the word savior is mentioned twice. The word LORD is mentioned 92 times. Gives one pause for reflection.
I only brought up that quote because I have noticed how saturated the GES writings are in giving predominance to the so-called "carnal Christian." It's like using that concept as fire escape insurance from hell." Hey, who needs to live a life of holiness? I mean, I mumbled some magic words about "believing" one time 60 years ago and I was "saved." Now, of course, I'm an atheist, a drunkard, a wife-swapper, a child molester, a murderer, and even worse--a democrat, but guys, ya know what!!! It doesn't matter. I burped out the words "I believe," and I'm in like flynn. What do I say to that? Well.....THROW UP!!
Now, for the real issue. I would have to write a 5,000 word essay if I tried to address all the misconceptions in your remarks about the plan of salvation. I'm not going to do that, and we can agree to disagree (which does not mean I accept our positions as morally equivalent) because I have stated over and over again the plain teaching of scripture, and it is either ignored, or not understood. I realize these things are spiritually discerned. However, how one can deny the teaching that man has NOTHING to contribute to their salvation and furthermore, CANNOT contribute anything to their salvation, and have nothing to contribute in the first place, is beyond my comprehension. We'll leave it where Holy Writ leaves it--with God Alone!!!
Finally, and this is the last word since nothing I say matters, you have it exactly backwards--wrong if you will. Trent, you do not have eternal life because you believe. You believe because you have eternal life.
Good Grief!! Let me ask you one more time. HOW can a lost person who is spiritually dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1), by his own innate ability (which he does not have, John 6:63), correctly understand and interpret Spiritual truth--1 Cor. 2:14--in order to savingly believe?
YOU SAY:
"As far as the rest, your argument seems to be based on dead in sins meaning they cannot believe."
Of course that's what the scriptures mean. Spiritually dead means dead. Not 20 per cent dead, or just a little sick, but deader than a door nail. Fallen man is in an utterly hopeless state and cannot do anything to change that. It is impossible for man. Like it or not, fuss and fume at God if you must, but the fact is, get over it!!!! Man can to nothing to help God save him. How could he? He not only is helpless, he is at enmity with God. He hates God, is anti-God, can's stand the idea of God, can't even seek the TRUE GOD. He can only grovel around in the dirt and make idols and worship the creature, not the Creator.
Enough of this I BELIEVED, see how great I am. Change the song around The fallen, depraved man sings "How great I am," instead of 'How Great thou Art."
I find it the height of arrogance to maintain that puny, worm of a man, fallen, unregenerated, lost, at war with God, can think he can "believe" without being enabled by the power of the Holy Spirit. Eph. 2:5.
I've said it until I'm blue in the face and won't repeat it again. I pray that you Arminians ask to have your minds opened, as the Holy Spirit did for Lydia, so as to understand what is spiritually discerned.
I don't say this to be mean spirited, but out of great love for people. I desire ALL to be saved and come to a knowledge of God.
Romans 5 explains why those not born again are doomed to hell. They are sinners and are held accountable, that's why all are born under a death sentence. We are all unworthy, guilty, God-hating, unregenerate sinners, before the miracle of the New Birth, which is performed without our contribution. We didn't even contribute anything in our physical birth, let alone in the divine miracle of the New Birth.
Away with all this prattle about man contributing anything toward their own salvation, or of taking a baby step toward their salvation, or helping God with their salvation. All of that, without exception, is nonsense, God-dishonoring, and blasphemous.
Paul, in Romans, deals with these false accusations against God when he is discussing the Potter and the Clay; some made for HONOR and some made for DISHONOR. Who in the world are we, says he, to question God. THAT, my friend, is the height of ignorance. That is something you would expect to come from the pea brain of someone an enmity with God.
I thank God every day the He is in charge of the salvation department, and not me. I've said my final piece. You won't agree and I know that. All I can say is check the scriptures daily to find the truth.
Peace be with you, as I sign off for good from these discussions. Generally speaking, they are a terrible waste of time.
DONALD
Donald, I for one appreciate your heart-felt burden for others and myself as an "Arminian" (although I myself prefer the term "Biblicist" and deny subscribing to either the errors of Arminism or Calvinism. ) But for the sake of discussion & your point of view: If I am one of the "non-elect" of God's vessels of wrath destined to destruction to His glory, then your appeal for me to believe is falling on deaf ears that will never hear! Correct? On the otherhand, if I am one of God's Elect then whether I agree with you or not on whether... "I believe because I have Eternal Life or I have Eternal Life because God convinced me He is not a Liar!" I am assured of Eternal Life with God! Just hoping this will ease your burden and sense of frustration for those of us that are not caught in the "conundrum of calvinism."
You are so kind to appreciate my frustration with those that seem to think God needs their help in order to save them. I'm glad that at least there are some in the world that recognize the utter futility and absurdity of that concept. Glad to hear you are not one of them.
You said you prefer the term "Biblicist" -- whatever that means. Actually I prefer no labels at all. They are entirely too misleading, in most cases.
I fully understand the errors of those that think man can contribute something to their salvation, no matter by what label they go by.
As for Calvinism, I'm with those that do not like that term either.
As for the term Biblicist, it is about as inane as the other labels. Do you really think any Christian would deny that they get their theology from the bible alone?
You say:
If I am one of the "non-elect" of God's vessels of wrath destined to destruction to His glory, then your appeal for me to believe is falling on deaf ears that will never hear! Correct?"
You are correct. If you are a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction, no amount of my appealing to you to understand the gospel will do any good. If the Holy Spirit doesn't enable you to understand Spiritual things, anyone could beg, plead, and badger you from now until dooms day, and it would be a waste of time. Actually it's worse than you say. The appeal would fall on DEAD ears, as opposed to deaf ears, that would never hear. I give you credit for seeing that. Most don't. They continue to believe that they somehow have something to contribute to their salvation. Like "accepting Jesus into their heart," and other such nonsense. Poor God. He can only be a partial redeemer, or a partial mediator between God and man, unless a fallen, depraved, dead in trespasses and sin, unregenerate person, who is at enmity with God, decides, out of the depth of their desperately wicked heart, to "accept" Him.
Good Grief!!! When will man stop trying to glorify himself and give the glory to the Thrice Holy God.
I'm a little surprised by your statement that "God convinced you He is not a liar." Thank God the Holy Spirit, but since I've been Born from Above, I've never had to be convinced of any such thing, since it has never entered my head that God was a liar. Only those unregenerate souls would think such a thing about God, I would think.
As usual my questions, arguments, scriptures, reasoning, etc., are ignored. So for the last time:
"HOW can a lost person who is spiritually dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1), by his own innate ability (which he does not have, John 6:63), correctly understand and interpret Spiritual truth--1 Cor. 2:14--in order to savingly believe?
As for a paradoxical, insoluble, or difficult problem; a conundrum if you will, of Calvinism, that is certainly in your head. I have no problem with any of it. I see the errors of Pelagianism, semi-pelagianism, synergism and Arminianism. I see no errors in what has become known as Calvinism.
And of course, you miss the point entirely. You continue to fail to deal with what IS the main point:
HOW did you believe, How did you become CONVINCED, that God is not a liar, before you were born again? And I'm not doubting that you are born again from above, just that you had anything to do with it.
Belief, by the way, is NOT a condition or cause of your salvation. It is the result. Just like salvation is a gift of grace, so is faith. If salvation is not a gift, then man has to add something to it, which is against the scriptures. And if salvation is not a gift, then neither is faith. And we are not the author of our faith. The Author and Perfecter of our faith, is Jesus Christ according to Heb 12:2.
It seems to me that there are two kinds of people--the saved and the lost. There is nothing in between.
For those that say Christ died for everyone without exception, then explain to me why everyone without exception are not saved. None of us would say everyone without exception will be saved.
If I understand your position correctly, you say that Christ died for ALL sins of ALL men. If so, then all should be saved.
You would say, no, no those lost didn't believe. But is belief a sin? If it is, and it is, then Christ died for that sin. If Christ died for the sin of unbelief, then why would that particular sin cause one to be lost. It's a sin, and Christ died for it, according to most free will advocates.
I say, along with the bible, that Christ died for, and was a substitute for All of the sins of some men, not all the sins of all men, otherwise you have to maintain universal salvation.
From the very beginning, starting in Genesis 3:15 it is clear there are two divisions of people. The "seed of the woman," and the "seed of the serpent."
Are you saying that Christ died for the "seed of the serpent," since you maintain Christ died for all?
If so, you are pitting the members of the Godhead against each other. Christ said he came to do the will of the Father, and according to John 6:39 the will of the Father is that Jesus not lose any that were given to him. If some of those Christ died for are lost, then Jesus did not do the will of the Father, which is impossible.
Those the Father have given to Jesus do not include the "seed of the serpent." Every single person without exception that was given to the Son by the Father, has been or will be saved by the Holy Spirit. Christ did not die for anyone that is in hell, or was in hell before the Atonement.
You can have your partial redeemer, your belief in a hypothetical redeemer for hypothetical believers, but that is not for me.
I believe in a redeemer that redeems, a reconciliation that reconciles, and a propitiation that propitiates. I do not believe in a hypothetical salvation for the hypothetical believer.
Christ died for the "seed of the woman," not the "seed of the serpent." To hold otherwise is nothing but blasphemy.
whew.. been to long since I have been back. Donald, you I think have changed some views on somethings since our discussion, although not on the fact that you need to be saved before you can believe. Since you are saved before you believe, then how can you have to believe to be saved? you put salvation or eternal life before belief.
Unlike the biblical order, you have those who have eternal life believe. The bible says those who believe have eternal life over and over. It also says clearly in John 3, those who do not believe do not have life.
As I started to respond to you on the forum lets do the same here, or I can just bring it over. What is your definition of belief? Mental assent or understanding something to be true, or more then that and if more, why?
If a mother tells her 5 year old that Santa Claus is real, he or she believes her. You state, that if the same mother, tells her child that if they believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life they get it, that they cannot?
Since it is natural for a child to believe his mother at that age, you have 2 choices. Either all children who are told at a young age are elect, or God disallows and specifically creates some people for Hell.
As we both don't want to get bogged down, lets focus first on your definition of belief, then take one scripture at a time to discuss. You can pick the first. :)
Oh, and to clarify or remind, belief is not a choice, it is being convinced something is true. learning about something, being open minded or choosing to meditate or listen is a choice that can lead to belief, but you can be convinced of truth and believe something even against our will.
Ask Saul..erm Paul. You could also ask mothers of soldiers killed in battle if you can be convinced against your will.
So how can a sinner believe Jesus Christ offers eternal life to all who believe?
The same way we hopefully all did. We were convinced it was true.
Why do young people get saved often, and old people seldom? Because they are convinced easier. Not because they become less elect at they get older.
You are so kind to appreciate my frustration with those that seem to think God needs their help in order to save them.
We agree that the Scriptures do not teach that "...GOD needs any help in order to save".
You said you prefer the term "Biblicist" -- whatever that means.
Bib·li·cist -ˈbɪbləsɪst -Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bib-luh-sist] Pronunciation Key -
–noun
Primarily used of a person who interprets/understands the Bible literally.
Actually I prefer no labels at all. They are entirely too misleading, in most cases.
agreed. but then we need words and labels to communicate
I fully understand the errors of those that think man can contribute something to their salvation, no matter by what label they go by.
Agreed. However, I do not view or teach that "belief in Christ's integrity and/or credibility" as helping GOD or contributing to one's salvation.
As for Calvinism, I'm with those that do not like that term either.
I understand, yet it is a recognized term that we may conveniently use, to simply save on words, to identify a system of interpreting Scripture (a system of which I happen to strongly disagree.)
As for the term Biblicist, it is about as inane as the other labels.
Biblicist is no more or less insignificant, empty, insipid, meaningless, or silly than the word "inane" itself. It is merely a term, like Arminianism, or Calvinism, or Pelagianism, that denotes/defines a unique system or view of interpreting Scripture.
Do you really think any Christian would deny that they get their theology from the bible alone?
Yes, unfortunately I have met several "professing" believers. Generally they are of the charismatic/pentecostal persuasion
You say:
If I am one of the "non-elect" of God's vessels of wrath destined to destruction to His glory, then your appeal for me to believe is falling on deaf ears that will never hear! Correct?"
You are correct. If you are a vessel of wrath fitted for destruction, no amount of my appealing to you to understand the gospel will do any good. If the Holy Spirit doesn't enable you to understand Spiritual things, anyone could beg, plead, and badger you from now until dooms day, and it would be a waste of time.
Check out www.CalvinistChurch.com
Actually it's worse than you say. The appeal would fall on DEAD ears, as opposed to deaf ears, that would never hear. I give you credit for seeing that. Most don't.
Kind of like Adam & Eve, and Cain after the fall of mankind, correct?
They continue to believe that they somehow have something to contribute to their salvation.
Romans 4.5 & 16; Romans 11.6
Like "accepting Jesus into their heart," and other such nonsense. Poor God. He can only be a partial redeemer, or a partial mediator between God and man, unless a fallen, depraved, dead in trespasses and sin, unregenerate person, who is at enmity with God, decides, out of the depth of their desperately wicked heart, to "accept" Him.
Agreed. Those of us that seek to interpret and understand the Bible literally and consistent with it's self(i.e. biblicists) recognize that "faith in faith" is a heresy. In fact, we recommend a booklet, SEVEN REASONS NOT TO ASK JESUS INTO YOUR HEART!
SEVEN REASONS NOT TO ASK JESUS INTO YOUR HEART!
Good Grief!!! When will man stop trying to glorify himself and give the glory to the Thrice Holy God.
Interesting "oxymoron" you used there, (Good Grief?) But your exclamation seems inconsistent with your view. Why would you expect otherwise from unregenerate, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, etc.???
I'm a little surprised by your statement that "God convinced you He is not a liar."
Amen! My wife & I thank Him everyday!
Thank God the Holy Spirit, but since I've been Born from Above, I've never had to be convinced of any such thing, since it has never entered my head that God was a liar.
Only those unregenerate souls would think such a thing about God, I would think.
Again, how from your perspective could these unregenerate, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, deaf souls, etc. think otherwise?
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