This is based on a few discussions with pastors, as well as some great brothers in Christ on the internet.
Must a person understand that Christ is God, the trinity and/or other of Christ's attributes to believe in him for eternal life, or is Jn 5/24 enough?
If you argue that you have to understand the Godhead and all that entails, please clarify why that attribute and not others (such as his title as the Son of Man and its meaning) and also, why did the disciples and other early believers not have to understand it.
14 comments:
Hi Trent!!! I think I will let someone else kick off the controversy! :) ...but I did want to say hi! Good to see you.
Thanks Rose! :) I have been having some awesome discussions about this with some other believers and thought it would be fun to sharpen some iron online as well. I hope you are doing well.
Hi Trent;
Undoubtedly a person must first hear the voice of the Lord Jesus to have eternal life (John 5:24)
In the physical realm, a person must first be born and hear his father and mothers voice before he can understand anything.
The same is in the Spirit; he must first be born again or born of the Spirit to have eternal life before he can understand anything of the Spirit.
The term "God the Son" is nowhere found in the Scripture that is because it is Trinitarian language used by people who say that God is three persons or three people if you like.
And who could understand that?
I think not even the best of theologians! Because they all say, "no one really understands an infinite God with a finite mind".
Regards
Paul
Hi Paul, thanks for visiting. Good points all.
An addition!
If a person must have understanding to have eternal life, then eternal life would not be a free gift of God.
It would force the Lord to give him life because of his understanding, providing that his understanding would be right.
But what about, if his belief and understanding would be wrong, would he miss out on life?
And which denomination could rightly judge whether his belief and understanding is right?
Can a man have understanding before life?
What was first, the egg or the chicken?
Paul
Hi Paul. I agree. You can have misunderstandings about him as long as you can believe in him for eternal life. We learn as we grow. Shoot, I am still learning. Jn 6:47 has a promise. I do think however that sometimes learning these facts can help bring someone to faith in Christ. They just are not requirements. Everyone's journey is different.
Hi Trent;
I am 27 Years in Christ and still learning, I don't think it will ever end.
But the good thing is, that our wonderful Lord and savior Jesus Christ will lead us into all the truth (John 16:13), that is also a promise to us.
I agree with you that knowledge or understanding is not requirements for eternal life.
But what do you think is required to have eternal life?
1 Tim 1:16.
If our understanding of Jesus Christ allows us to believe in him for the gift he offers, then we gain eternal life at that moment. Jn 3:16, Jn 6:47 and many others.
At that moment, we become a child of God and can begin growing. We then have Paul's challenge from Rom 12:1-2 to live up to. If it was a guarantee, then Paul would not be begging.
Trent; I suspected that you might say that.
If you think that eternal life is an offering, then you could not have agreed with me on my first comment.
"Undoubtedly a person must first hear the voice of the Lord Jesus to have eternal life". (John 5:24)
If you think that a person must DO something to have eternal life, then eternal life is not a free GIFT anymore, because it had been obtained by works (doing something) and then you would have something to boast about.
But if it had been GIVEN freely, then there would be nothing to boast about.
If life had been given as an offering as you said, then it would not be a GIFT, it would only be an offering.
If you decide to take the offering, then you would need to do something to obtain it.
1 Tim. 1:16, John 3:16, John 6:47, Rom. 12:1-2,
Not one of those verses says anything about OFFERING eternal life.
There are two ways to look at.
(1) Jesus actually didn't give you life, He only presented life as an offering and now it's up to you to grab that offering by faith, trust, belief or whatever you like to say.
(2) Jesus, at the appropriate time, while you still were dead in your sins and trespasses gave you life as a FREE GIFT.
Just like it says in John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live".
paul
Ok, :) I need you to explain yourself please.
Paul quoted "Undoubtedly a person must first hear the voice of the Lord Jesus to have eternal life". (John 5:24)
Please define what you believe hearing of Jesus is. The translation I am looking at here states that the one who hears his work and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life. That makes is a way to have everlasting life (requiring belief by the way) but does not make the hearing a univeral condition, but a statement of fact.
Paul said "If you think that a person must DO something to have eternal life, then eternal life is not a free GIFT anymore, because it had been obtained by works (doing something) and then you would have something to boast about.
But if it had been GIVEN freely, then there would be nothing to boast about.
If life had been given as an offering as you said, then it would not be a GIFT, it would only be an offering.
If you decide to take the offering, then you would need to do something to obtain it.
1 Tim. 1:16, John 3:16, John 6:47, Rom. 12:1-2,
Not one of those verses says anything about OFFERING eternal life.
You make it sound as though someone chooses to believe. I think you are misunderstanding. You cannot choose to believe anything. You believe because you are convinced its true. You can want to believe. You can meditate, study etc, but belief comes when you know its true. Offer and give are used interchangably. Faith and works are opposites, and over and over again, Faith is given as the only condition for eternal life. It is not a work because its the opposite like Grace is.
There are two ways to look at.
(1) Jesus actually didn't give you life, He only presented life as an offering and now it's up to you to grab that offering by faith, trust, belief or whatever you like to say.
(2) Jesus, at the appropriate time, while you still were dead in your sins and trespasses gave you life as a FREE GIFT.
apparently I have a 3rd choice. You recieve it if you believe. Jn 1:12. I don't grab it. I receive it when I believe.
It sounds like what you are arguing that you recieve eternal life with out belief. If so, then we have a lot of discussion. There is no way to get that from the book of John which in Jn 20:30-31 was written so that you might believe and by believing have life in his name.
Paul says "Just like it says in John 5:24 "I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live".
You mean 5:25. The dead were hearing, and according to the voice prior they would live by doing what? Jn 3:18. He who does not believe is condemned already.
Thanks for posting Paul.
Grace and Truth,
Trent
OK Trent, I'll do my best to explain. :-)
Hearing the voice of Jesus is just like Lazarus in the tomb, dead and decaying, suddenly he heard Jesus calling his name and commanded him to come forth or live.
So it is with every man who is born again, or born of the Spirit.
After Lazarus had been given the FREE GIFT of life, he gladly believed in the Lord Jesus and did whatever the Lord told him.
Paul had been struck of the horse and heard the voice of Jesus and only after he heard the voice he believed in Jesus.
I have not said anything about choosing, but of course you can choose to believe whatever you like. Look at the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Moslems, they all are convinced what they believe is true.
Many believe things which are not true, yet they choose to believe it.
You said, "OFFER and give are used interchangeably. Faith and works are opposites, and over and over again, Faith is given as the only condition for eternal life. It is not a work because it's the opposite like Grace is."
James would not agree with you about Faith and works are opposites, he says that Faith without works is dead or basically useless.
Faith is NOT a condition FOR eternal life; it is by Grace (unmerited).
If something has a condition attached, then it is not Grace, it is merited to that condition.
Also, eternal life is NOT an OFFER.
An OFFER is not a GIFT.
An OFFER you do not possess or own, but a GIFT you possess and own.
Life is a gift of God to His children.
No Trent; you don't have a 3rd choice. :-)
You receive it and then you believe.
My argument is that the children of God first receive eternal life and then they believe and are admonished to put their Faith and trust in Jesus only.
John 5:20 I'm sorry Trent, I don't understand what you mean by, "the dead were hearing, and according to the voice prior they would live by doing what?"
Please explain.
Regards Paul
Thanks Trent for your patience with me.
An additional Comment;
In the natural life (the physical life or the flesh) was nothing required from you to be born naturally, no understanding, no choice, no faith, no will or what ever.
You were in the loins of your earthly Father. It was your Fathers choice, his will and his understanding to bring you into this world and you could do absolutely NOTHING about that, you could not even reject that life.
The same is in the spiritual.
You were in Christ before the foundation of this world and He (Jesus) loved you with an everlasting love.
At the right time He brought you forth, caused you to be born again or born of the Spirit because God is Spirit.
All that was done by His will, His choice, His understanding etc. and you could do absolutely nothing, not even refuse that free gift of life that is because you were DEAD in your sins and trespasses.
After you had received the free gift of life from your heavenly Father you could say 'ABBA FATHER', and believe, trust and have faith in the Lord Jesus and do whatever He commands you to do.
Perhaps you prefer the explanation of Jesus. (John 3:5-8) "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So is it with everyone born of the Spirit."
This is how all life came into being.
First the chicken was created and then the egg.
Kind regards
Paul
Can you or anybody answer this question?
Since all life and eternal life was freely given by the Lord, apart from our WILL and DOING (John 1:13).
Why then is eternal life not given to every person in the whole world?
We know that the Lord is absolutely JUST and we all have sinned and are under the condemnation of eternal death (opposite to eternal life).
Why did the Lord give eternal life to some and not to others?
Please tell me if you can?
Paul
Hi Paul. I have read your posts and will be responding when I have some time, but I noted you did not respond to John 20:30-31 nor are you addressing Jn 1:12, John 3:16-18 He who believes "has" eternal life, and he who does not believe is condemned already. Jn 6:47, Jn 10:37-38 Jn 11:25-26. The "condition" is believe to have eternal life, and with out believing, you do not have it. Thanks for your patience and talk to you soon.
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